Does Free Will Exist?

[Mystic-als]

I do belive in a soul. I also belive that my life here and now is pre-determined. By who? By my Soul. But this is done before this life began. Am I pre-destined? Yes. I pre-destined myself to live this life and learn all it's lessons so that I will become a more complete soul.
Life is a journey, not a destination.
having said all that.

MaddLlama - "These are the questions the philosophers died still asking."
good comment. I agree.

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

Choosing an alternate route, or changing jobs is still reacting to a cause. Also, reacting to decisions you make, or reacting to things outside of your control are reactions to causes. Either way, the actions your taking or thoughts your thinking in both situations are determined by something. They may be in different contexts or you may be acting/thinking according to different scenarios, but they both come down to reacting to the world around you in response to causes which are deterministic.

When you are stuck in traffic you can choose to feel angry and frustrated, or you can feel grateful and at peace. This is your free will. This is were your power lies. This is the real test. Not the situation, but this choice. Do you react out of fear or love. That is the basis of free will.

If someone you know steals from you, you can choose to be angry and seek retaliation, or justice, or you can forgive them and choose to love them and be there for them when KARMA kicks them in the arse.

If your children are jumping on your last remaining nerve, you can choose to be angry and frustrated, yelling at them, etc., or you can choose to be patient, and understanding.

Usually we will react to these situations from a conditioned response, because we do not understand the concept of free will. We do not understand the consequences of reacting out of fear. We do not understand that by acting out of anger, we bring more anger into our lives. How you react to the situations today will determine the situations you have to face in the future.

If you keep being frustrated at the kids, they will continue to be frustrating. If you learn to be accepting, and loving, and at peace, the children will stop frustrating you. Free will starts with the mind, a thought, a feeling. That is the only thing in this world that we really truely have control over. Everything around us is a mirror of what is within us. If we want to change what is outside of us, we must make the adjustments from within.

It's like our life is a movie, we think we are stuck with the movie we have, but if we change what is inside the projector, we change what we see projected on the screen.

 

[BucephalusBB]

*Sigh :d
You peolpe all don't really follow what they idea behind this all is huh?

When you are stuck in traffic you can choose to feel angry and frustrated, or you can feel grateful and at peace. This is your free will. This is were your power lies. This is the real test. Not the situation, but this choice. Do you react out of fear or love. That is the basis of free will.

The feeling of free will that you have is indeed the anger. I can imagine you thinking that when you get angry, you use your free will to become calm again. "common person, get a hold of myself". What opethian means is that it's not just the traffic that tells yourself to calm down or the situation. And it's not just your education or the way you grew up. It's not just the chromosomes of your father and mother together. It's everything!

 

[michel]

If you believe in the soul, yet you do not believe it has any interaction during your life, what would you say its function is? Can you define it? What makes you believe or convinces you that there is a soul?

Sorry, I had not seen your questions addressed to me.

The soul is the real 'me' (the one that lives forever, and will return to God one day). The function of my soul is to try to achive perfection. Each time I use a physical body to live my life on earth, I must not have acvess to the memories of all my incarnations; that would be a bit like taking my text books into an exam.

No you didn't choose. Here are a few factors I can think of off the top of my head, but of course there are plenty of others: You're here on RF in the first place because you obviously have an interest in discussing religious and philosophical matters (if not that reason, there is some other reason). Where did the interest come from? Who knows I don't want to judge you...perhaps some of the interest you inhereted genetically, perhaps most of it came from a life experience. Maybe you experienced something which forced to you look at life a different way, and caused you to become interested in the questions one can ask about it. Perhaps coupled with those factors, someone told you about the site, and that's what got you "in". Then once you're here, okay, you respond to this particular question, at this particular time. Why? Mood definately plays a part. Perhaps if there was already another thread dealing with freewill in which you already exhausted your thoughts on, you wouldn't have said what you said. Or at least maybe would have overlooked it at first. Timing: if you had a different sleep schedual, (which is itself due to your daily "awake" schedual), there's a good chance you wouldn't have signed on when you did, or chose to respond to this thread when you did. Also, Jayhawkers link influenced what you said. If he wouldn't have provided that, about half of what you said would be omitted, and you would also have been at the previous perspective state (the state your mind was in before you learned what you learned from the site). These are just surface factors. So many things affect our mood, timing, etc. Food we eat or don't eat, sleep we get or don't get, sunlight we're exposed to, people we're exposed to, habits, memories, etc. They go on forever. These environmental factors, coupled with your hereditary traits are what precede and determine the choice you made to post your response, how you posted it, and when you posted it.

That's an awfully long winded way of saying that I had no choice in taking my toaster to the electrical repair shop, because it had stopped toasting. Forgive me my frivolity.
Of course we have 'tendencies', of course it is possible to predict how we will react to a certain situation, but 100% accuracy? NO. Therefore, we do have free will.

I had the free will to either have the toaster fixed, or to go and buy a new one; and 'no' that is not governed by my ability to buy a new one..........

 

[BucephalusBB]

..., but 100% accuracy? NO. ....

That's only because we don't know all information. Example, we can predict weather. in the early days the farmer would look up and say it will gonna rain in a few days. With more information nowadays we can say:'it will rain tomorrow there and there" We can even quote times as well. With more information we could pretend where the rain would fall, maybe even calculate where every drop of water would hit the ground. But we would need far more information that that. But , it would be possible if you had all that information (and a computer strong enough).
We will never reach the 100 % because we can't tell when bird will fly thru the rain and change the pattern.
But what if we did know that...?

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

*Sigh :d
You peolpe all don't really follow what they idea behind this all is huh?
[/color]
The feeling of free will that you have is indeed the anger. I can imagine you thinking that when you get angry, you use your free will to become calm again. "common person, get a hold of myself". What opethian means is that it's not just the traffic that tells yourself to calm down or the situation. And it's not just your education or the way you grew up. It's not just the chromosomes of your father and mother together. It's everything!

I do not understand why these are arguemenst against free will. They are explainations of how people don't understand free will. Opethian wrote this in his thread on the subject:

I don't think you understand the concept I'm trying to texplain. We don't have a real ability to choose outcomes, because what our choices will be in any situation is already determined before we make the choices, because all that influences that choice is the structure of our body and the input we get from our environment at that time. Choosing is just an abstraction of biochemical processes going on in the brain, processes that are ruled by the laws of physics, by the rules of the universe, that are set. Which means your choice is determined, and thus not a "free will choice" as you would look upon it.

Just because we have learned that the body is a series of chemical reactions, and electrical impulses, does not mean that we have no free will, we are not robots. And just because our choices are limited, does not mean there is no free will. Free will is a simple choice of positive or negative. Do you choose to be positive or negative? Do you choose to be positive or negative in adverse situations? Do you choose to be positive or negative in desirable situations?

Sometimes the truth is too simple to accept, we try to make things complicated. Free will is extremely simplistic. You only really have two choices.

There was a young man who was moving from his hometown to the big city.

On the way into the city he ran across an old man and asked him,

"What kind of people live in this city?" The old man asked him "What kind of people lived in your home town?"

"The town I lived in was full of theives, and liars," the young man replied. The old man said, "That's exactly what you will find in the big city."

A little while later another young man came across the old man. And said, "I'm new to the big city and was wondering what kind of people I will find there." Again, the old man asked "What kind of people lived in your home town?"

The young man said "The people in my town were kind and gracious." The old man said "That's exactly what you'll find in the big city".

Both men were from the same home town.

 

[BucephalusBB]

Just because we have learned that the body is a series of chemical reactions, and electrical impulses, does not mean that we have no free will, we are not robots.

Nope, it doesn't, because it's a theory.. And keep reminding that I never spoke about the body only, but about everything.

And just because our choices are limited, does not mean there is no free will.

Even if they were unlimited like what is your favourite number. The amount of choices makes no difference..

Free will is a simple choice of positive or negative. Do you choose to be positive or negative? Do you choose to be positive or negative in adverse situations? Do you choose to be positive or negative in desirable situations?

But if your mother was killed and you were raped when you were young, you are ugly and can't make friends then it highly likely you won't be positive. Ofcourse the chance is there that you will be possitive, but smaller. ofcourse these events are not the only thing that decides the mood..

Sometimes the truth is too simple to accept, we try to make things complicated. Free will is extremely simplistic. You only really have two choices.

For me the concept of having no soul is simpler that the concept of having a soul. So who is making what complicated?

 

[cardero]

I’m not sure if I have been following this conversation correctly, do I or do I not have the ability to kill someone tomorrow if I wanted to?

 

[BucephalusBB]

I’m not sure if I have been following this conversation correctly, do I or do I not have the ability to kill someone tomorrow if I wanted to?

Yes you do. Only if we knew all factor and have a kickass computer we could now calculate that you will decide tomorrow not to do it..

 

[Mystic-als]

cardero - Yes you do.
But the better question is... Will you? Ability and Will are totally different.

 

[WARTORIOUS]

I believe the universe is some what Newtonian, that is to say a unnerves without randomness; I cannot understand why something atomic sized would move without cause, if an atom or something on that level were to move it would be because forces are affecting it, the way it moves is logical and can only ever be in one way. Things don’t move for no reason, maybe we can’t predict how they move, that doesn’t mean there unpredictable. I don’t believe I can understand true randomness, that is to say things happening without cause.

Because of this I think only one thing ever can happen, if you took a snapshot of the entire unnerves for one instant I believe you could predict 100% accurately what would happen in a hundred years, a thousand, or even a billion years. (I believe the centre of the unnerves is ahead of the outside temporally so is in theory possible).

Well if this is true then although we may believe in free will there is only 1 thing that can ever happen. Although on a human level we can still believe in free will.

What I say is What will happen will happen, the future is as fixted as the past.
This doesn’t stop you doing what you want to do. Nor should the acceptance change your life. The world has not changed, maybe only your perceptions of it.

 

[ikitikitembo]

When you are stuck in traffic you can choose to feel angry and frustrated, or you can feel grateful and at peace. This is your free will. This is were your power lies. This is the real test. Not the situation, but this choice. Do you react out of fear or love. That is the basis of free will.

If someone you know steals from you, you can choose to be angry and seek retaliation, or justice, or you can forgive them and choose to love them and be there for them when KARMA kicks them in the arse.

If your children are jumping on your last remaining nerve, you can choose to be angry and frustrated, yelling at them, etc., or you can choose to be patient, and understanding.

Usually we will react to these situations from a conditioned response, because we do not understand the concept of free will. We do not understand the consequences of reacting out of fear. We do not understand that by acting out of anger, we bring more anger into our lives. How you react to the situations today will determine the situations you have to face in the future.

If you keep being frustrated at the kids, they will continue to be frustrating. If you learn to be accepting, and loving, and at peace, the children will stop frustrating you. Free will starts with the mind, a thought, a feeling. That is the only thing in this world that we really truely have control over. Everything around us is a mirror of what is within us. If we want to change what is outside of us, we must make the adjustments from within.

It's like our life is a movie, we think we are stuck with the movie we have, but if we change what is inside the projector, we change what we see projected on the screen.

All these reactions are determined. They are determined by your mood and personality. Mood and personality are determined. They aren't simply the products of a will that isn't governed by anything. The will itself is determined.

...the other objections you and some other people had were excellently addressed by Bouncing Ball.

 

[martha]

If free will did not exist, then Religious Forums would not exist!

The definition of Determined is, "decision upon, as by an authority." Therefore there is a higher authority who has given life and given choice and who has determined that this divinely inspired choice will ultimately be up to the individual. Our Creator has so deemed that we will not be subject to His authority,...no...we will be subject to our own decisions and will be allowed to choose our path, for the good of our brothers and sisters or for their detriment, due to our greed and selfishness!
God is not a God of instilling His way upon the masses. On the contrary, God opens Himself daily and offers Himself daily in the most Holy Eucharist, (the Body nd Blood of Christ). It is as if He places His great hand before His eyes and says, " I know your faults, but beloved, I extend myself once again to you in hopes that this time you will acknowledge me, in the hope that you will feel my loving touch this time and respond to me." God is all forgiving. We are one with Him, in our esssence. He offers Himself and His teachings to us every day, every moment. It is up to us to acknowledge His love for us and with free will, decide to follow Him.

Think about your every day actions and reactions to certain situations. Who decides your reactions? Who tells you to curse someone for cutting you off in traffic? Who directs you to be extremely ticked off at Aunt or Uncle or friend so and so, at any given time? No person on this earth directs you or me. This is our free will to judge our brothers and sisters and relatives at any point in time.
Let's face the fact beloved, free will does exist, we just don't have the ----- to admit it or take the responsiblility for it. It has been determined that we will be responsible for our own actions. We would much prefer to point a finger at another being or God, rather than face the fact that we hold the key to our life's journey, by our free will decisions. God knows our future from before the day we are born, but He sees what might be, and what might not be. He hopes the best for us, but He will never force His Way upon us. So He waits to see what our free will, that He has given to us, will produce. Free will is a gift and a grace that has been given to us to use wisely. What do you choose? As for me, I chose to follow God, who loves me unconditionally, and who offers me the opportunity to reconcile with Him every day. He knows our potential, but He waits upon our choice, with our God given free will!

 

[BucephalusBB]

If free will did not exist, then Religious Forums would not exist!

I can't comment on the last 2 paragraphes. they are about God and as he does not exist for me, that is just opinion. The belief in God can make you easilly think that free will does exist. The belief in God will in most cases also mean the belief in a soul. If there is a soul it is most likelly to be able to think. So I am going to share my opinion now, looked from the perspective of evolution.

I am one of those guys that asume this world "started" with a soup of wich animals came out (very short version as it has nothing to do with this thread) Anyway, somewhere in the line of time, human arived. Somewhere in the line the soul has to come into this story. Without the concept of God, I think it is really weird that there was a bunch of souls waiting till there was some planet where the species were "ready" for them to enter.
That about souls :beach:


These creatures that live in the soup in the first place are doing there thing. they are generated as "robots" because otherwise they could never even have been created. They are automated. In this same view free will can just not popup. in the evolution it becomes handy to have preferences and before we know it, we have the feeling of free will.

And the reason why I quoted you, that feeling of free will is one of the reasons that created religious forums

 

[cardero]

Yes you do. Only if we knew all factor and have a kickass computer we could now calculate that you will decide tomorrow not to do it..

Once this is achieved, wouldn't we technically be living in a technocracy?

 

[cardero]

cardero - Yes you do.
But the better question is... Will you? Ability and Will are totally different.

Sorry about the terminology, I was concerned that someone would comment that there would have to be certain conditions met before I could enact my crime (for example procuring a weapon and the use of two arms).

 

[BucephalusBB]

Once this is achieved, wouldn't we technically be living in a technocracy?

I have no Idea what a technocracy is, but I am guessing the answer will be yes.

 

[cardero]

I have no Idea what a technocracy is, but I am guessing the answer will be yes.

Welcome To Alphaville
Population..........calculating (please stand by)

 

[BucephalusBB]

Welcome To Alphaville
Population..........calculating (please stand by)

In that case the answer should be yes.
does that scare you then? because you won't be alive by then.

 

[cardero]

In that case the answer should be yes.
does that scare you then? because you won't be alive by then.

What if I exercise my free will to reincarnate. :ignore: