Does God accept human sacrifice?

[McBell]

I beg to disagree mestemia but roli is right, God never accepted human sacrifice. God did not require Jephthah to sacrifice her daughter, but rather Jephthah made a vow unto the Lord...

And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,​

Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD'S, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.​

You will not find anything there that God actually commanded Jephthah to offer her daughter as a human sacrifice. To make you understand a little about making vows, here's an insight concerning vows...


Ecc 5:2 Be not rash with your mouth, nor let your heart be hasty to utter a word before God, for God is in heaven and you are on earth. Therefore let your words be few.
Ecc 5:3 For a dream comes with much business, and a fool's voice with many words.
Ecc 5:4 When you vow a vow to God, do not delay paying it, for he has no pleasure in fools. Pay what you vow.
Ecc 5:5 It is better that you should not vow than that you should vow and not pay.
Ecc 5:6 Let not your mouth lead you into sin, and do not say before the messenger that it was a mistake. Why should God be angry at your voice and destroy the work of your hands?

And what God has to say against human sacrifice, is it actually to Him you offer human sacrifice?

Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

See, it does not even came into His heart to command such thing (human sacrifice).

God did ACCEPT the human sacrifice.
It does not matter that God did not Command it.
It does not matter that God did not require it before the vow.
But God did require it after the vow.
For one is to keep all vows one makes to God.

ECC 5:2-6 states that one is required to keep the vows made to God.
Since Jephthah vowed his daughters life, God did in fact require the human sacrifice of Jephthah's daughter.

Thank you for further proving my point.

 

[ironangel]

God did ACCEPT the human sacrifice.
It does not matter that God did not Command it.
It does not matter that God did not require it before the vow.
But God did require it after the vow.
For one is to keep all vows one makes to God.

ECC 5:2-6 states that one is required to keep the vows made to God.
Since Jephthah vowed his daughters life, God did in fact require the human sacrifice of Jephthah's daughter.

Thank you for further proving my point.

Says who? says you??? You will not find any verse that God required Jephthah, nor commanded him to offer her daugther. What I am trying to imply here is that, do not be hasty in making any vows for God has no plesure in fools!

Assuming for the sake of argument that God did accept Jephthath's daugther as human sacrifice... granting without accepting, her daughter will not fall under sacrifice but as payment for the vow. But for God to command any human being to offer Him humans as I reiterated before, it does not even crossed His heart to such act. And also, all things belong to God and if He wants to take it who are you to question Him? To further prove my point, if He wants to take your life now... tell me do you have the power to resist death or to any human being? Can anybody resist the power of death? I'll qoute some verses to cement my views....

Ecc 8:8There is no man who has power over the spirit to keep the spirit; nor power in the day of death; and there is no discharge in that war; nor shall wickedness deliver its owners.
Even if you try as you might, you cannot stop or retain the spirit within you when it is required by the owner to take it at the time of death. Be as wicked or notorious as you can be, you will never have enough power to resist it.

So instead of accusing God, why not open your heart to reasons and as to why God to this & do that. Although, we cannot posibly know all the answers right now but I strongly believe that God will not do anything that will harm those He love. Bad things happen to wicked people but maybe, just maybe it is because of their wickedness. Who are we anyway that God should be accountable for His actions?

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

I am much humbled & feeling small just thinking of questioning the Creator. I may not understand some things happening around me but I trust my God and I reserve no right to question Him. For His knowledge is far higher than ours...


Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

 

[McBell]

Says who? says you??? You will not find any verse that God required Jephthah, nor commanded him to offer her daugther. What I am trying to imply here is that, do not be hasty in making any vows for God has no plesure in fools!

Assuming for the sake of argument that God did accept Jephthath's daugther as human sacrifice... granting without accepting, her daughter will not fall under sacrifice but as payment for the vow. But for God to command any human being to offer Him humans as I reiterated before, it does not even crossed His heart to such act. And also, all things belong to God and if He wants to take it who are you to question Him? To further prove my point, if He wants to take your life now... tell me do you have the power to resist death or to any human being? Can anybody resist the power of death? I'll qoute some verses to cement my views....

Ecc 8:8There is no man who has power over the spirit to keep the spirit; nor power in the day of death; and there is no discharge in that war; nor shall wickedness deliver its owners.
Even if you try as you might, you cannot stop or retain the spirit within you when it is required by the owner to take it at the time of death. Be as wicked or notorious as you can be, you will never have enough power to resist it.

So instead of accusing God, why not open your heart to reasons and as to why God to this & do that. Although, we cannot posibly know all the answers right now but I strongly believe that God will not do anything that will harm those He love. Bad things happen to wicked people but maybe, just maybe it is because of their wickedness. Who are we anyway that God should be accountable for His actions?

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

I am much humbled & feeling small just thinking of questioning the Creator. I may not understand some things happening around me but I trust my God and I reserve no right to question Him. For His knowledge is far higher than ours...


Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

*yawn*
Your denial of the facts presented to you IN THE BIBLE is rather amusing.

 

[Willamena]

*yawn*
Your denial of the facts presented to you IN THE BIBLE is rather amusing.

So is your professed belief in the factuality of the bible.

 

[McBell]

So is your professed belief in the factuality of the bible.

My professed belief?
You assume to much.

For those who accept the Bible as fact:

It is a fact that the verses in question show that God accepted a human sacrifice.
It is a fact that the other verses in question show that God requires one to fulfill vows
made to God.
So for those who believe that the Bible is fact, it is a fact that God required afore mentioned human sacrifice.
​

 

[Willamena]

My professed belief?
You assume to much.


For those who accept the Bible as fact:

It is a fact that the verses in question show that God accepted a human sacrifice.​

It is a fact that the other verses in question show that God requires one to fulfill vows made to God.​

So for those who believe that the Bible is fact, it is a fact that God required afore mentioned human sacrifice.​

It's the usual practice to make arguments from a position that you yourself can defend. Else, you present a strawman.

 

[McBell]

It's the usual practice to make arguments from a position that you yourself can defend. Else, you present a strawman.

What strawman has been presented by me?

 

[McBell]

It's the usual practice to make arguments from a position that you yourself can defend. Else, you present a strawman.

What strawman has been presented by me?

The statement was made:

No, God never has accepted human sacrifice

to which I replied:

Hate to say, but you are flat out wrong:

Judges 11:29 -39 (KJV)
Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he passed over Gilead, and Manasseh, and passed over Mizpeh of Gilead, and from Mizpeh of Gilead he passed over unto the children of Ammon.
And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,
Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD'S, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.
So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon to fight against them; and the LORD delivered them into his hands.
And he smote them from Aroer, even till thou come to Minnith, even twenty cities, and unto the plain of the vineyards, with a very great slaughter. Thus the children of Ammon were subdued before the children of Israel.
And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter.
And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the LORD, and I cannot go back.
And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the LORD, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth; forasmuch as the LORD hath taken vengeance for thee of thine enemies, even of the children of Ammon.
And she said unto her father, Let this thing be done for me: let me alone two months, that I may go up and down upon the mountains, and bewail my virginity, I and my fellows.
And he said, Go. And he sent her away for two months: and she went with her companions, and bewailed her virginity upon the mountains.
And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man...
​

 

[Willamena]

What strawman has been presented by me?

That the passages are about human sacrifice.

 

[McBell]

That the passages are about human sacrifice.

You are going to have to better explain it because I do not see it.

I do however see that others have tried to strawman the argument.
I replied that God does accept human sacrifice and then provided an example.
The only strawman I see is where they tried to change it from ACCEPT to DEMAND and/or REQUIRE.

 

[Don Penguinoini]

Human sacrifice is stupid... God has never come down on earth and said, kill yourself mate... Only god can take lives naturally, with a proper death. Since humans cannot give life, you cannot take life, this is for life of animals as well as humans.

 

[Willamena]

You are going to have to better explain it because I do not see it.

I do however see that others have tried to strawman the argument.
I replied that God does accept human sacrifice and then provided an example.
The only strawman I see is where they tried to change it from ACCEPT to DEMAND and/or REQUIRE.

From Wikipedia:

Bullinger goes on to give examples from the Bible where the same word has been translated as "or". According to him, the right translation of this passage is: "whatever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the people of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord's, or I will offer it up as a burnt offering." Jephthah’s daughter, being the first that came out of the house, was thus, according to Bullinger, dedicated to God. Bullinger gives also further evidence in support of his view. As he says for verse 39 of Judges:

It is recorded that Jephtha "did with her according to his vow which he had vowed, and she knew no man" (v. 39). What has this to do with a burnt offering, one way or the other? But it has everything to do with the former part of his vow, in dedicating her to Jehovah. This seems to be conclusive. It has nothing to do with a sacrificial death, but it has to do with a dedicated life. She was dedicated to a perpetual virginity.​

I have also heard an interpretation that Jephtha's daughter had adopted a pagan religion, supported by her disappearing into the moutains for 2 months to ritually celebrate before becoming a Virgin of her or her father's religion.

 

[Random]

Do you mean "human's sacrificing"?

In "real" life, you will have heard it said that you get nothing for nothing and "naught without labour" (as the Masons say...); thus, everyone the whole world over competes to survive and thrive in the grand economy of souls. This involves sacrifice.

Ergo, everyone necessarily sacrifices something (your humanity or part thereof?) for what they've got. You have to eat, drink and maintain a residence, right? So, you PAY for it, (presumably) by exchanging your time (via labour, work) for money. That is sacrifice.

If GOD minded sacrifice in principle, we'd all be damned.

As for human sacrifice in the sense of religious ritual human sacrifice, well, the Jewish Levite butchers used to do that in Yahweh's name, but they were apostates in the end and God condemned Israel to destruction for this amongst numerous other violations of His will.

I believe God does not mind human beings sacrificing their lives for others if their lives or cause is worthy and righteous. Christians believe Jesus Christ did this, after all.

 

[McBell]

I have also heard an interpretation that Jephtha's daughter had adopted a pagan religion, supported by her disappearing into the moutains for 2 months to ritually celebrate before becoming a Virgin of her or her father's religion.

So there is a group who contest the translation of the verses.
Your post about it is the only one in this thread.

The reply to my post about the human sacrifice was NOT a refusal that the girl died, but a weak attempt at the weasel word fallacy. They were claiming that the word sacrifice did not apply because it was payment of a debt.

So you still have not shown, From what was actually stated in the thread up to the accusation, where I presented a strawman.

 

[MdmSzdWhtGuy]

Gonna have to go with Mestemia on this one. God very clearly did accept a human sacrifice in the verses he referred to, and beyond that, did anyone ever hear the story of this guy named Jesus? Kind of sounds like he was a human sacrifice to me.

B.

 

[ironangel]

So there is a group who contest the translation of the verses.
Your post about it is the only one in this thread.

The reply to my post about the human sacrifice was NOT a refusal that the girl died, but a weak attempt at the weasel word fallacy. They were claiming that the word sacrifice did not apply because it was payment of a debt.

So you still have not shown, From what was actually stated in the thread up to the accusation, where I presented a strawman.

Your example did not support your claim, you cited a verse where you cannot find that God did accept a human sacrifice nor did Jephthah burned her daugther to death. The context of the verse is how Jepthah made a vow unto the Lord and you assumed that Jepthah burned her daugther as human sacrifice but it was not in the verse. That's the strawman.

The more acceptable explaination is that her daugther remained a virgin the rest of her life and we can read this in the verse and not as what you've been claiming. I'll qoute the passage...

And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man...

after 2 months she returned to her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man... What does the phrase "and she knew no man" mean? This is the vital understanding, "and she knew no man" means she remained a virgin. It implies that she was not burned or offered, but as the vow was "it will be the Lord's" she belonged to the Lord and not to any other. It would be illogical to say "and she knew no man..." when after returning from the mountains to bewail her virginity, she was offered or burned. She remained a virgin means she lives & remained to be a virgin (and she knew no man). The word "knew" there means sexual intercourse or mating ( if you want I can still supply verses to support this), so to say "and she knew no man" means she lived & lived to be a virgin all her life.

I have already laid basis here that God did not command nor require people to be offered as burned offering.

Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.


It is not the qualities of God to see "His" people burn to death, but He burns those who hate Him like Sodom and Gomorra. Search the bible if there is an instance where God commanded any of His people to offer their sons or daugthers as burnt sacrifice. There is one... Abraham, but it was stopped by an angel saying...

Gen 22:11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
Gen 22:13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

 

[ironangel]

Gonna have to go with Mestemia on this one. God very clearly did accept a human sacrifice in the verses he referred to, and beyond that, did anyone ever hear the story of this guy named Jesus? Kind of sounds like he was a human sacrifice to me.

God very clearly huh!??? It was not even in the verse .

Jesus? A human sacrifice. You mean the Roman armies, Pilate and the unbelieving Jews offered Jesus to God as human sacrifice by nailing Him to the cross? They were the ones who killed Jesus, and you rate that as human sacrifice???

It was God the Father who gave His only begotten son to the world, that whosoever believe should not perish but have eternal life...

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

It was God who gave & not as the wicked offering Jesus by nailing Him to the cross, it's a wrong interpretation you got there friend. Did anyone (person) offered Jesus as human sacrifice? You should understand that when righteous people offer sacrifices unto the Lord, the Lord delights. Is it delightful to see your son being nailed by wicked people & accept it as a human sacrifice?

 

[McBell]

Your example did not support your claim, you cited a verse where you cannot find that God did accept a human sacrifice nor did Jephthah burned her daugther to death. The context of the verse is how Jepthah made a vow unto the Lord and you assumed that Jepthah burned her daugther as human sacrifice but it was not in the verse. That's the strawman.

The more acceptable explaination is that her daugther remained a virgin the rest of her life and we can read this in the verse and not as what you've been claiming. I'll qoute the passage...

And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man...

after 2 months she returned to her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man... What does the phrase "and she knew no man" mean? This is the vital understanding, "and she knew no man" means she remained a virgin. It implies that she was not burned or offered, but as the vow was "it will be the Lord's" she belonged to the Lord and not to any other. It would be illogical to say "and she knew no man..." when after returning from the mountains to bewail her virginity, she was offered or burned. She remained a virgin means she lives & remained to be a virgin (and she knew no man). The word "knew" there means sexual intercourse or mating ( if you want I can still supply verses to support this), so to say "and she knew no man" means she lived & lived to be a virgin all her life.

I have already laid basis here that God did not command nor require people to be offered as burned offering.

Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.


It is not the qualities of God to see "His" people burn to death, but He burns those who hate Him like Sodom and Gomorra. Search the bible if there is an instance where God commanded any of His people to offer their sons or daugthers as burnt sacrifice. There is one... Abraham, but it was stopped by an angel saying...

Gen 22:11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
Gen 22:13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

Then the vow was not kept:

Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD'S, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.
​

the phrase "and she knew no man" simply means she was a virgin.

 

[ironangel]

Then the vow was not kept:

Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD'S, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.​

Like Willamena is saying, some passages say this...

Jdg 11:31 then it shall be that whatever comes out from the doors of my house to meet me when I return in peace from the sons of Ammon, surely it shall belong to Jehovah, or I will offer it up instead of a burnt offering. (Modern KJV)

The vow was kept, she offered her daugther to God & so she belonged to God. And as a proof the bible specifically say "and she knew no man" which suggest she remained alive and "knew no man".

If you will just study the context of the passage carefully, you might ask... "why would she wail for her virginity, if you were the daughter you will not wail for your virginity anymore but for your death... that is, if we follow your arguement. The daughter knew that she will be offered unto the Lord and will never marry, and that's the reason she bewailed her virginity. If you are going to die why would you still wail for your virginity, it's illogical! Wail for your death instead! Wailing your virginity suggest that she will endure it til she dies, and so the phrase "and she knew no man" was not recorded just for the sake of writing. It is telling something, that to fulfill the vow made by his father she remained a virgin "and she knew no man".

the phrase "and she knew no man" simply means she was a virgin.

No, she remained a virgin. It is written to prove that the vow was fulfilled & kept by staying to be a virgin or remaining to be a virgin. And that's the reason why she wailed for her virginity, the account says...
"Jdg 11:37 And she said unto her father, Let this thing be done for me: let me alone two months, that I may go up and down upon the mountains, and bewail my virginity, I and my fellows."

What's the logic behind this, "bewail my virginity" and not "bewail my death" (as you are supposing she was burned). Study the context and there is no death being suggested in the passage. Or a human sacrifice.

 

[McBell]

Like Willamena is saying, some passages say this...

Jdg 11:31 then it shall be that whatever comes out from the doors of my house to meet me when I return in peace from the sons of Ammon, surely it shall belong to Jehovah, or I will offer it up instead of a burnt offering. (Modern KJV)

The vow was kept, she offered her daugther to God & so she belonged to God. And as a proof the bible specifically say "and she knew no man" which suggest she remained alive and "knew no man".

If you will just study the context of the passage carefully, you might ask... "why would she wail for her virginity, if you were the daughter you will not wail for your virginity anymore but for your death... that is, if we follow your arguement. The daughter knew that she will be offered unto the Lord and will never marry, and that's the reason she bewailed her virginity. If you are going to die why would you still wail for your virginity, it's illogical! Wail for your death instead! Wailing your virginity suggest that she will endure it til she dies, and so the phrase "and she knew no man" was not recorded just for the sake of writing. It is telling something, that to fulfill the vow made by his father she remained a virgin "and she knew no man".




No, she remained a virgin. It is written to prove that the vow was fulfilled & kept by staying to be a virgin or remaining to be a virgin. And that's the reason why she wailed for her virginity, the account says...
"Jdg 11:37 And she said unto her father, Let this thing be done for me: let me alone two months, that I may go up and down upon the mountains, and bewail my virginity, I and my fellows."

What's the logic behind this, "bewail my virginity" and not "bewail my death" (as you are supposing she was burned). Study the context and there is no death being suggested in the passage. Or a human sacrifice.

so it really boils down to which passage is the correct passage.
And that is a debate that noone can win.