Does God break his vows?

[Shem Ben Noah]

If God creates an "everlasting covenant" and some people come along later and say, 'oh no... God has nullified it'...

Who do you believe?

 

[serp777]

Well according to Christians whatever God does is a moral action because of his nature. This means that if God breaks a covenant it doesn't matter because no matter what he is still perfectly moral. So God could break his vows and would still be moral, which makes this a moot point.

 

[Eliab ben Benjamin]

Does God break his vows?

No neither does he break everlasting covenants he makes,

if you consider the reverse then you are the one who misunderstood or misinterpreted .

 

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks..

Well that "god" actually made an entirely new covenant with an entirely new "chosen people" didnt it..?..

It had already pretty much abandoned the Jews even before Christ came - its last active bona fide Prophet was Malachi wasnt it..?...and that was like hundreds of years before Christ and the "god" had been silent all that time..Then we have all that confusion with Christ - they MURDER Him - it fractures the Jewish faith quite badly - and the god remains silent throughout...Next time it speaks to man, its not the Jews at all - but now its Mohamed and he is told this is a new and legitimate FINAL covenant as mankind has broken the ones made before...SAME god - only now it reveals it self differently AGAIN and gives a new truth to its new chosen people....

Of course we should consider there - it then has all these various factions - all following in ITS name(s) and dong its direct bidding - and yet THEY ARE ALL ENEMIES TO EACH OTHER as it tells them directly to wipe the others out in never ending "holy wars"...

Literally the so called god went from camp to camp and set mankind against mankind and its been this way ever since....
We should ask ourselves seriously - do we even WANT that as our god..?....I dont care if it created us directly or not - it just doesnt deserve my respect, my loyalty or my adoration - not at all - not if it can act like that and cause all this calamity for us ON PURPOSE....We should rip up that covenant entirely and flip that "god" the bird.....

After all - in a very real sense - that is precisely what Christ Himself advised, said and did directly - NOT A GOD AT ALL HE warned - only an ANGEL that is DECEIVING you all - come away from it He said - HATE your parents and their truths and traditions for THAT one is tricking you always..That "god" is only an angel He warned - NOT MY FATHER He told them clearly - and of course for this truth -they murder Him...

Yes Folks - He warned us all very clearly - who and what that god was really like - and world history just bore out His words as legitimate Divine truth...That one is NOT Our Father - so no covenant needed with THAT one at all - but instead, follow only the Christ and place our trust in Him alone...we are greatly deceived by that "god" and all it has done to us He warned us clearly..For those with ears to hear..

 

[Etritonakin]

If God creates an "everlasting covenant" and some people come along later and say, 'oh no... God has nullified it'...

Who do you believe?

If God makes a conditional covenant -or a covenant which can be fulfilled -it has not been broken by him.

Israel broke the old covenant -but God still kept his part of the covenant.

Will look up verses specifically about the old covenant if I have time, but remember God set before them life and death -blessing and cursing -and advised them to choose life.

There were specific blessings and cursing outlined in the Old Testament -and the curses for disobedience are coming to pass even now -but will result in purification.

However, certain unconditional promises were given by God which are also still coming to pass -such as birthrights, national blessings, etc....

 

[George-ananda]

If God creates an "everlasting covenant" and some people come along later and say, 'oh no... God has nullified it'...

Who do you believe?

That man put the covenants in God's mouth?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If God creates an "everlasting covenant" and some people come along later and say, 'oh no... God has nullified it'...

Who do you believe?

The ones I think actually talked to God... i.e. neither.

BTW: I think that your description of Christian belief is a misrepresentation.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Does God break his vows?

No neither does he break everlasting covenants he makes,

if you consider the reverse then you are the one who misunderstood or misinterpreted .

The (mainstream) Christian view isn't that the covenant is nullified. Their view is that the covenant never imposed requirements on the dead, and that believers have "died with Christ" in the eyes of the law.

They still believe that the covenant is effect. They just believe that their duties under the covenant are those of a corpse... i.e. none at all.

It makes more sense when you realize that baptism originally entailed holding the new convert under water until they had a near-death experience. They believed that they had literally died.

 

[viole]

Well according to Christians whatever God does is a moral action because of his nature. This means that if God breaks a covenant it doesn't matter because no matter what he is still perfectly moral. So God could break his vows and would still be moral, which makes this a moot point.

Well, the question is about an everlasting covenant. So, the point is not moot. IF it breaks it, He would have lied about the "everlasting" attribute. And, if I remember my lessons at Sunday school, God cannot possibly lie.

So, logically, if you believe that God promised an everlasting covenant, you cannot possibly believe the ones who said He broke it.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Neo Deist]

If God creates an "everlasting covenant" and some people come along later and say, 'oh no... God has nullified it'...

Who do you believe?

I believe that God does not intervene with our affairs, and does not speak to people through divine inspiration to the point that they write down God's words. Any type of covenant was/is man made by a certain person/religious group.

 

[metis]

Deuteronomy 4 (2): "your G-d…shall not add to what I have commanded you or subtract."

Dt. 13(1): "You shall be careful to observe, neither adding to it or subtracting."

Dt. 13(5): "His commandment you shall observe, holding fast to Him alone."

Genesis 17:[7] And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.

Genesis 17:[13] both he that is born in your house and he that is bought with your money, shall be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant.

Deuteronomy 7:[9] Know therefore that the LORD your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations,

Deuteronomy 29:[12] that you may enter into the sworn covenant of the LORD your God, which the LORD your God makes with you this day;
[13] that he may establish you this day as his people, and that he may be your God, as he promised you, and as he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.

Psalms 89:[34] I will not violate my covenant,
or alter the word that went forth from my lips.

Psalms 105:[8] He is mindful of his covenant for ever,
of the word that he commanded, for a thousand generations,

Isaiah 44:[21] Remember these things, O Jacob,
and Israel, for you are my servant;
I formed you, you are my servant;
O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me.

Isaiah 45:[17] But Israel is saved by the LORD
with everlasting salvation;
you shall not be put to shame or confounded
to all eternity.

Isaiah 52:[1] Awake, awake,
put on your strength, O Zion;
put on your beautiful garments,
O Jerusalem, the holy city;
for there shall no more come into you
the uncircumcised and the unclean.

Dt. 29(28): "Concerns us and our descendents forever, that we may carry out all the words of this Law."

Joshua 1(5): "I will not leave or forsake you…(7) observe the entire Law … do not swerve from it."

Psalms 19(8): "The Law of the Lord is perfect… (10) the ordinances of the Lord are true; all of them are just."

Ps. 119(160): "permanence is Your words chief trait, each of Your just ordinances is everlasting."

Isaiah 42(21): "pleased the Lord in His justice to make His Law great and glorious."

Is. 66(17): "they who eat swine’s flesh … shall all perish."

Baruch 4(1): "the Law endures forever."

 

[Deeje]

If God creates an "everlasting covenant" and some people come along later and say, 'oh no... God has nullified it'...

Who do you believe?

To which covenant do you refer? The "old covenant" or the "new covenant"? All those born in the fleshly nation of Israel were bound to abide by the "old covenant". At Mt Sinai, they agreed to the terms of that covenant voluntarily. (Exodus 19:1-9)

But God foretold the "new covenant" by his prophet Jeremiah in the seventh century B.C.E., stating that it would not be like the Law covenant, which Israel broke. (Jeremiah 31:31-34) Once a party to a covenant breaks the terms of the agreement, the covenant is automatically broken. God never broke a promise or a covenant....yet Israel did both. Since his covenant was tied into producing their Messiah, God kept them in existence, chastising them and forgiving them until his purpose in connection with them was complete. Their Messiah arrived right on time, but the nation as a whole rejected him. For that, God would cast them off as his people, which he had every right to do. (Matthew 23:37-39)

John the Baptist, whom the Jews recognized as a prophet told those Jewish leaders...
Matthew 3:7-9:
“You offspring of vipers, who has warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Therefore, produce fruit that befits repentance. 9 Do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones."

Just being born Jewish was no longer a guarantee of God's favor. (Acts of the Apostles 15:14; Acts of the Apostles 10:34-35)

On the night before his death, when he established the celebration of the Lord’s Supper, Jesus Christ announced the "new covenant", to be validated by his sacrifice. (Luke 22:20) On the 50th day from his resurrection and 10 days after he had ascended to his Father, he poured out the holy spirit, which he had received from his Father, on his disciples gathered in an upper room in Jerusalem. (Acts of the Apostles 2:1-4, 17, 33; 2Corinthians 3:6, 8, 9; Hebrews 2:3, 4)

The parties to the new covenant are Yahweh, on one side, and “the Israel of God,” (the spirit-begotten ones in union with Christ, making up his congregation or body,) on the other. (Hebrews 8:10; 12:22-24; Galatians 6:15, 16; 3:26-28; Romans 2:28, 29)

The "new covenant" is made operative by the shed blood of Jesus Christ, the value of which was presented to Yahweh after Jesus’ ascension to heaven. (Matthew 26:28) When one is selected by God for the heavenly calling, (Hebrews 3:1) God brings that one into His covenant through Christ’s sacrifice. (Psalm 50:5; Hebrews 9:14, 15, 26) Jesus Christ is the Mediator of the new covenant (Hebrews 8:6; 9:15) and is the primary Seed of Abraham. (Galatians 3:16) By means of Jesus’ mediatorship of the new covenant, he assists those in the covenant to become part of the real seed of Abraham (Hebrews 2:16; Galatians 3:29) through forgiveness of their sins. God declares them righteous. (Romans 5:1, 2; 8:33; Hebrews 10:16, 17)

These spirit-begotten, anointed brothers of Christ become underpriests of the High Priest, in “a royal priesthood.” (1Peter 2:9; Revelation 5:9, 10; 20:6) These do a priestly work, a “public service” (Phillipians 2:17), and are called “ministers of a new covenant.” (2Corinthians 3:6) These called ones must follow Christ’s steps closely, faithfully, until laying down their lives in death; Yahweh will then make them a kingdom of priests, making them sharers in divine nature, and will reward them with immortality and incorruption as joint heirs in the heavens with Christ. (1Peter 2:21; Romans 6:3, 4; 1Corinthians 15:53; 1Peter 1:4; 2Peter 1:4)

People of the nations would now join fleshly Jews by becoming 'a people for Yahweh’s name' as a part of Abraham’s “seed.” (Acts 15:14) They become the “bride” of Christ, and are the body of persons whom Christ takes into a covenant for the Kingdom, to rule with Him. (John 3:29; 2Corinthians 11:2; Revelation 21:9; Luke 22:29; Revelation 1:4-6; 5:9, 10; 20:6)

The purpose of the new covenant requires that it continue in operation until all of the “Israel of God” are resurrected to immortality in the heavens.
The benefits from that accomplished purpose will be everlasting, and for this reason it can be called “an everlasting covenant.” (Hebrews 13:20)

 

[Shem Ben Noah]

The ones I think actually talked to God... i.e. neither.

BTW: I think that your description of Christian belief is a misrepresentation.

Ummm.... I didn't *say* anything about Christian belief, mate.

<----- see my religion label? That's the one I'm talking about.

 

[Shem Ben Noah]

To which covenant do you refer? The "old covenant" or the "new covenant"? ...

The very FIRST covenant, my covenant, of Genesis 9

 

[Tumah]

The very FIRST covenant, my covenant, of Genesis 9

I've never heard anyone make that claim. Although granted, my knowledge of other religions is limited to what people have said here.

 

[Shem Ben Noah]

I've never heard anyone make that claim. Although granted, my knowledge of other religions is limited to what people have said here.

What claim? That " I will establish My covenant with you..." first occurs in Gen 9 or that they claim it as theirs?

 

[Tumah]

What claim? That " I will establish My covenant with you..." first occurs in Gen 9 or that they claim it as theirs?

That
'oh no... God has nullified it'...

 

[Shem Ben Noah]

That
'oh no... God has nullified it'...

"The Talmud teaches that G-d saw that the children of Noah were not fulfilling the Noahide Laws, so He nullified the Noahide Laws."

THAT sound familiar?
Think that THAT has not been thrown in my face before?

And... *don't* say that the laws are separate from the covenant, they can not be separated any more than the 613 can be from Sinai Covenant.

 

[Tumah]

"The Talmud teaches that G-d saw that the children of Noah were not fulfilling the Noahide Laws, so He nullified the Noahide Laws."

THAT sound familiar?
Think that THAT has not been thrown in my face before?

And... *don't* say that the laws are separate from the covenant, they can not be separated any more than the 613 can be from Sinai Covenant.

Sure they are. The Mosaic covenant was when Moses required the Jews to fulfill the 613 commandments. Before that Jews were not required to fulfill any besides the 7 and circumcision.
But Noah & sons were already required to fulfill the Noahide Laws via Adam. The Noahide covenant was that G-d wouldn't destroy all of mankind again for not obeying what they were already commanded to do.

Of course if you read a little later in my post there, you'll see that I bring the commentators who explain that G-d didn't actually void the Noahide Laws as that would be problematic in a different respect (as the Talmud notes). Rather he changed the status of fulfilling them.

 

[psychoslice]

You never know what to expect from god, or should I say the ones who make up god.