Does God "CHOOSE" not to know the future?

[Hockeycowboy]

djhwoodwerks,
Think!!! If God knew beforehand everything that any person was going to do, it would mean that God had all these wicked things that men did in His own mind. If God knew before they happened, it would mean that nothing ever done would be a surprise to Him. Remember, over some things that happened, God felt hurt in His heart, and some things he regretted, Genesis 6:5-7. Why would God feel regret, and destroy all people, except Noah and his family, if He already knew that the ruining of the earth was going to take place?? If God created men and placed them on earth and knew everything they were going to do before they did it, then the responsibility would be God's, because once God knows what is going to happen, in MUST happen that way, and especially, if it is written down. The evil that men would do would have been in God's mind before any man did evil.
For just the reason you stated, God does not look ahead, or foreknow men's actions, because if He did, people could say that they had no choice, because God had already decided their actions.
Remember, God is going to bring everyone to judgment for their actions, and it would be unjust if their actions were already preplanned, and God is always just in all His dealings, Deuteronomy 32:4,5, Job 34:10,12, Revelation 22:12, Romans 2:2-13.
When God created Adam and Eve, He created them perfect, and He stated what He wanted them to do, Genesis 1:26-28. They were created to live forever, they could only die, if they rebelled against God, Genesis 2:17. God had given them everything they could want. For all God's blessings, He gave them one way that they could show Him that they appreciated all the things He did for them, Do not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil !!! At that time three was no evil, the rebelling against God was the evil that they would know, if they decided to obey Satan instead of God.

Excellent reasoning! Kudos for using the Scriptures. One more I might add: Jeremiah 7:31, (it) 'never came up into His heart'!
It's also a good scripture to reason with others on, regarding the false doctrine of Hellfire. Yes?

 

[Skwim]

It's not a case of what "people need"; it's what God's Word itself says! He was surprised; He was hurt; He did regret! That was the reality. Grief, read the accounts.

Grief, read the accounts.

The Bible says in

Isaiah 46:9, 10,: “I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please."

Psalm 139:4
Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O LORD, you know it altogether.

Matthew 24:36
"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

Acts 2:23
this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

1 Peter 1:2
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
​

They're five of the scriptures Christians have used to establish his knowledge of the future. Five that people such as yourself ignore in favor of those affirming your needs, principally your need to retain the illusion of choice.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Grief, read the accounts.

The Bible says in

Isaiah 46:9, 10,: “I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please."

Psalm 139:4
Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O LORD, you know it altogether.

Matthew 24:36
"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

Acts 2:23
this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

1 Peter 1:2
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
​

They're five of the scriptures Christians have used to establish his knowledge of the future. Five that people such as yourself ignore in favor of those affirming your needs, principally your need to retain the illusion of choice.

The difference between you and me: I see these Scriptures -- which I've known for years -- and the previous ones mentioned, describing God's regret and his hurt, and understand how they completely harmonize with each other; you see them, and view them as contradictions.

But many learned men, deep thinkers such as Newton and Milton, etc., saw the harmony, too; so I'm in good company.

You can't just peruse the words, you need to meditate on them! Even then, Luke 10:21 applies; not all can grasp its meaning.

I'm sorry for losing my patience, I'll try not to let it happen again.

 

[Skwim]

The difference between you and me: I see these Scriptures -- which I've known for years -- and the previous ones mentioned, describing God's regret and his hurt, and understand how they completely harmonize with each other; you see them, and view them as contradictions.

Among many, many others. Adhering to the Bible is an exercise in continuously turning a blind eye. One would think the god of Abraham could have written a far more coherent book. Or, having done so, insure that it remained so. In fact, the greatest argument against the Bible and its "truths" is the Bible itself.


.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Among many, many others. Adhering to the Bible is an exercise in continuously turning a blind eye.
.

No, only continuously having an open mind. Those Scriptures you quoted do not contradict the others. That what God has purposed, will happen. And that He can read our mind and heart. That's all they're saying, and that doesn't contradict the others. If you think about what you're reading in those verses, you'll see it.

**One would think the god of Abraham could have written a far more coherent book. Or, having done so, insure that it remained so**

I agree quite a bit, up to a point. In fact, I would have loved for God to have mentioned the atom, galaxies, or something like that! But there's enough in those 66 books, to have proven to me that it is God's Word, with the understanding I've been given, i.e., taught. (One tiny bit of evidence is how screwed up this world is.....and the Bible prophesied this. And many others, regarding the increase in earthquakes, wars, pestilence, and famine. And how spiritism would be pervasive.) But then, God doesn't want those without faith worshipping Him. A person needs faith, especially in Jesus' ransom sacrifice! (It'd be hard to prove how Jesus' sacrifice saves mankind, at least scientifically. The Bible does, though.) That's partly why Jesus said what he did at Luke 10:21.

 

[Skwim]

No, only continuously having an open mind. Those Scriptures you quoted do not contradict the others.

Sure they do. They paint a picture of a god who knows the future, and would logically not be surprised, or have regret. Yet you claim he is surprised and has regret. If you can't see these as contradictory states then there's no use in continuing this discussion.

That what God has purposed, will happen. And that He can read our mind and heart. That's all they're saying,

Okay, I'm out of here. Your intentional misreading is too much to bother with. Have a good day.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Gen 22:12 And He said, "Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me." [It was an angel or messenger (elohim) of YHVH, speaking in the first person as an agent for the Father, who "did not know" the choice Abraham would make, whom the evidence indicates is Christ pre-incarnate].

I disagree, because it says;

Gen 22:10-12 (NKJV) 10 And Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son.
11 But the Angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!"
So he said, "Here I am."
12 And He said, "Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me."

If God/Jesus didn't know Abraham was going to sacrifice Issac, why would He not have let him do it? It says, "Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son", God had to know he was going to do it. Abraham could have raised his hand to slay Issac, and as he was bringing his hand down, he could have changed his mind and said. "I can't kill my only son." So it was known that he would have done it.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Excellent reasoning! Kudos for using the Scriptures. One more I might add: Jeremiah 7:31, (it) 'never came up into His heart'!
It's also a good scripture to reason with others on, regarding the false doctrine of Hell fire. Yes?

I believe in eternal fire of hell! The Bible speaks of the grave many times, and if there was no hell fire, why would it be mentioned? The "GRAVE" is identified with people who have/will die, but hell is referred to the judgment. Everyone who dies before judgment day are put into "GRAVES", then the Bible says that people in the "GRAVES" will be resurrected to life or to eternal hell fire.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Good thing. I'm not aware anywhere in the Bible it explicitly makes the case that he can do anything, except Jesus said it once Matthew.

Mat 17:20-21 (NKJV) 20 So Jesus said to them, " Because of your unbelief; for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you. 21 However, this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting."

If nothing is impossible for us, how can we be greater than God?

 

[james2ko]

I disagree, because it says;

Gen 22:10-12 (NKJV) 10 And Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son.
11 But the Angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!"
So he said, "Here I am." 12 And He said, "Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me."

If God/Jesus didn't know Abraham was going to sacrifice Issac, why would He not have let him do it? It says, "Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son", God had to know he was going to do it. Abraham could have raised his hand to slay Issac, and as he was bringing his hand down, he could have changed his mind and said. "I can't kill my only son." So it was known that he would have done it.

Because killing Isaac was not part of the plan. Testing Abraham whether he would do it or not was the plan. Utilizing your same reasoning I could then ask, if Jesus knew Abraham was going to sacrifice Isaac, why would He even bother to test Him?

 

[djhwoodwerks]

What about in the Book of Jonah? He said He was going to destroy Nineveh, but when the Ninevites repented and changed, then God changed His mind. That tells me God doesn't know the outcome. We are endowed with free will.

Besides, if God knows the choice people will make, then how come the Bible says that God 'felt regret' at what happened? That would make Him a self-inflicting sadist, not a loving Father!

Why do people try to refer to the God of the old testament as a loving Father? He was not "FATHER" in the old testament! He's referred to as the "GOD" of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, not the Father. In the OT one could only have their sins "COVERED" for a year. It wasn't until Jesus, or the NT that our sins are forgiven and we are given the "RIGHT" to be called sons of God.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Because killing Isaac was not part of the plan. Testing Abraham whether he would do it or not was the plan. Utilizing your same reasoning I could then ask, if Jesus knew Abraham was going to sacrifice Isaac, why would He even bother to test Him?

The Bible says that God "TESTED" Abraham. Who do you believe that test was to benefit, God or Abraham?

 

[dust1n]

Mat 17:20-21 (NKJV) 20 So Jesus said to them, " Because of your unbelief; for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you. 21 However, this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting."

If nothing is impossible for us, how can we be greater than God?

I'm sorry I don't understand the question. I was referring to Matthew 19:26, "Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”" This is the only sentiment in the Bible I'm aware of that suggests God can do anything. There isn't anything in the Old Testament that makes such an explicit claim.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

I'm sorry I don't understand the question. I was referring to Matthew 19:26, "Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”" This is the only sentiment in the Bible I'm aware of that suggests God can do anything. There isn't anything in the Old Testament that makes such an explicit claim.

My fault, I misread your post!

 

[james2ko]

The Bible says that God "TESTED" Abraham. Who do you believe that test was to benefit, God or Abraham?

Both. Christ needed to know the extent of Abrahams faith. Abraham discovered a deeper faith in God he perhaps would not have discovered had it not been for the test .

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I believe in eternal fire of hell! The Bible speaks of the grave many times, and if there was no hell fire, why would it be mentioned? The "GRAVE" is identified with people who have/will die, but hell is referred to the judgment. Everyone who dies before judgment day are put into "GRAVES", then the Bible says that people in the "GRAVES" will be resurrected to life or to eternal hell fire.

Do you know, the Bible says that Jacob said he was going to hell when he died? (Genesis 42:8) King David, also. The Bible states that even Jesus, when He died, was in hell! (Psalms 16:10) It's just that He wasnt "left" there......He was resurrected by God, after 3 days. -- Acts of the Apostles 13:34-37. Compare Acts of the Apostles 2:25-31

And Job prayed to go there, for relief. -- Job 14:13-14.

Hell is the Grave ( = Sheol, Hades ). Nothing more. (I'm not referring to individual graves, a totally different word. Rather, the Bible refers to Hell as a place where dead people are at, due to sin (Death is due to sin, Romans 7:23)

In the Greek Sciptures (i.e., the New Testament), where it says 'hellfire" (for example, at Matthew 18:9), it's actually a mistranslation of the Greek word "Gehenna" (check a Greek Interlinear), where in other places within the NT, Gehenna is translated "Lake of Fire". Also, Hell is not eternal, because Revelation 20:13 says "Hell gave up the dead which were in it" , and verse 14 says it's "hurled into" the Lake of Fire. This verse further helps a person to reason that Hell can't be the Lake of Fire, because it's "hurled into" it. Hell will be gone forever, once mankind is resurrected out of it, as Jacob, Job, and King David will be.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Why do people try to refer to the God of the old testament as a loving Father? He was not "FATHER" in the old testament! He's referred to as the "GOD" of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, not the Father. In the OT one could only have their sins "COVERED" for a year. It wasn't until Jesus, or the NT that our sins are forgiven and we are given the "RIGHT" to be called sons of God.

He is God, and Father. The Jews thought so! (John 8:41) So did Jesus and Martha, as seen from Jesus' words at John 20:17.

And notice Luke 3:38. Adam, son of God.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Rom 9:7-8 (ESVST) 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

Just being born does not make God ones Father!

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Both. Christ needed to know the extent of Abrahams faith. Abraham discovered a deeper faith in God he perhaps would not have discovered had it not been for the test .

If the test was to benefit God, why did He not let Abraham go through with it? Like I said, If God didn't know Abraham was going to kill Issac, why did He stop him before he proved himself? God wouldn't have know that, just as Abraham's hand was coming down, he could have stopped and said he couldn't do it. Just because he went through the motions, doesn't mean he would have done it. God had to know he was going to do it or He would not have stopped him.

 

[james2ko]

If the test was to benefit God, why did He not let Abraham go through with it? Like I said, If God didn't know Abraham was going to kill Issac, why did He stop him before he proved himself? God wouldn't have know that, just as Abraham's hand was coming down, he could have stopped and said he couldn't do it. Just because he went through the motions, doesn't mean he would have done it. God had to know he was going to do it or He would not have stopped him.

The benefit to God was not in having Isaac killed, it was finding out the level of Abraham's faith. Abraham's act of raising the knife was good enough to satisfy Jesus' ignorance of Abraham's level of faith. Which brings me back to my question: if Jesus absolutely knew Abraham was going to sacrifice Isaac, why would He even bother to test Him?