Does God "CHOOSE" not to know the future?

[dust1n]

Again, merely making the claim does not make it so.
You still have not shown how gods knowing something removes freewill.
you merely repeat the claim over and over.

It doesn't "remove" free will. It basically assures it was never there to begin with.

it matters not how god garnished the knowledge.
Merely having the knowledge does not remove free will.

Sure, it's just logically reassuring that in order God or anything else to garnish such knowledge, humans can't have free will. If they did, how could anything see the outcome of a decision not yet considered. If free will just entails playing a series of decisions exactly as expected, then I'm still at a loss about what you consider to be free exactly...

 

[McBell]

It doesn't "remove" free will. It basically assures it was never there to begin with.

You have not demonstrated nor shown how gods knowledge effects free will.
You have merely made the bold empty claim.

Sure, it's just logically reassuring that in order God or anything else to garnish such knowledge, humans can't have free will. If they did, how could anything see the outcome of a decision not yet considered. If free will just entails playing a series of decisions exactly as expected, then I'm still at a loss about what you consider to be free exactly...

You are the one making the assumptions.
Starting with the existence of god...

I have merely pointed out you have not demonstrated your claim.

 

[Akivah]

The reason here, that I have no will, is because in order for God to know what I did yesterday in advance, my yesterday would have needed to be fixed in such a way that there could only be one possible answer. And when I say possible, I don't mean, like, possible in the sense that nothing is stopping my body from jumping off a cliff. I mean in the sense that, God calls the outcome of all possibilities with certainty. It's possible on the next coin flip the outcome will be heads or tails. But if God already knows what the outcome of the coin flip, then there is really a 50/50 chance. There is more of a 100% chance Gods known outcome is the outcome.

You keep going back to G-d calls the outcome or G-d fixes the event, but aren't providing examples that demonstrate how foreknowledge equates to control. I agree with Mestemia that knowledge of an event does not equate to control of an event. For us, in our linear moments, each flip of the coin gives a random chance of head or tails. G-d's knowledge of which side is coming up next is not linked and is completely different from G-d reaching out and forcing the coin to land on a specific side. The coin flip is always random whether anyone is watching or not.

Or consider a sporting event that was taped. Two guys that just came back from camping go to watch the recorded event. Does the fact that everyone else knows how the game came out mean that the players had no freewill?

 

[dust1n]

You have not demonstrated nor shown how gods knowledge effects free will.
You have merely made the bold empty claim.

Again, because I'm not saying that God's knowledge effects ANYTHING. I'm saying that in order for God to have knowledge about the outcome of given decision, there can only be one possible outcome for a decision. There could be a million choices given to me, I'm only going to pick the one in which the future has already laid out.

You are the one making the assumptions.
Starting with the existence of god...

Um, the only assumption I'm using is that God exists (which I don't even believe) which was provided by the OP, and the God knows everything if he does exist, which is pretty common amongst people who believe in God.

I have merely pointed out you have not demonstrated your claim.

You stated earlier than it would be different if God pointed out my future to me, or something, that would conflict with my free will, right?

 

[dust1n]

You keep going back to G-d calls the outcome or G-d fixes the event, but aren't providing examples that demonstrate how foreknowledge equates to control. I agree with Mestemia that knowledge of an event does not equate to control of an event.

That's the one thing I'm explicitly trying to make clear isn't the case I'm making. God doesn't have to be in control of anything at all for his knowledge to assure a static future of all "free will" events.

For us, in our linear moments, each flip of the coin gives a random chance of head or tails. G-d's knowledge of which side is coming up next is not linked and is completely different from G-d reaching out and forcing the coin to land on a specific side. The coin flip is always random whether anyone is watching or not.

I know that God's knowledge doesn't determine the outcome. I'm saying there is a 100% that any possibility God foresees would come true. If I had a random number generated that pick numbers from 1 to 100,000,000, God could say, the first random number will be 71,345,128. What are the chances that the number will be anything other than 71,345,128. If it is anything other than zero, that means that repeating this exercise over and over, God eventually would get it wrong.

Or consider a sporting event that was taped. Two guys that just came back from camping go to watch the recorded event. Does the fact that everyone else knows how the game came out mean that the players had no freewill?

No, but knowing the past isn't the question. Consider a sporting event that will be taped tomorrow. God already has the tape and gives it to you. Or better yet, you use your looking-into-the-future-machine and watch the game tomorrow, today. How would anything else result other than what's on that tape, or what you saw, before it played out?

Imagine I'm the QB, and I saw the tape in advance. Do I have a choice to do something else? If I do, then the tape is flawed. If I don't, then the tape is correct.

 

[Akivah]

I know that God's knowledge doesn't determine the outcome. I'm saying there is a 100% that any possibility God foresees would come true. If I had a random number generated that pick numbers from 1 to 100,000,000, God could say, the first random number will be 71,345,128. What are the chances that the number will be anything other than 71,345,128.

For us linear beings, the chance is always 1 to 100,000,000. We don't have G-d's knowledge to know what number came up. It could have been any number from our perspective.

No, but knowing the past isn't the question. Consider a sporting event that will be taped tomorrow. God already has the tape and gives it to you. Or better yet, you use your looking-into-the-future-machine and watch the game tomorrow, today. How would anything else result other than what's on that tape, or what you saw, before it played out?

Imagine I'm the QB, and I saw the tape in advance. Do I have a choice to do something else? If I do, then the tape is flawed. If I don't, then the tape is correct.

That tape would show all the freewill decisions that are going to be made. No one but G-d knows what the players are going to choose to do ahead of their linear time. The outcome may be "fixed", but it was a stream of freewill decisions that led to the "fixed" outcome.

And when talking about a being that is outside of time, the past is just as relevant as the future. Past and future are concepts that only apply to us linear beings. So looking back, now that you now how that sporting event last week came out, does that mean the players had no free will? Could they have chosen a different result?

 

[dust1n]

For us linear beings, the chance is always 1 to 100,000,000. We don't have G-d's knowledge to know what number came up. It could have been any number from our perspective.

Right, which means our perspective is illusory to the reality of the situation. Just because we don't have God's knowledge to know what number came up, doesn't mean that such knowledge suddenly doesn't exist and serves as no problem. This would also assume that from our perspective that we have free will and that from God's perspective, we have none. Which perspective do you think more accurately reflects reality?

That tape would show all the freewill decisions that are going to be made. No one but G-d knows what the players are going to choose to do ahead of their linear time. The outcome may be "fixed", but it was a stream of freewill decisions that led to the "fixed" outcome.

Which means that freewill decisions only have one possible outcome.

And when talking about a being that is outside of time, the past is just as relevant as the future. Past and future are concepts that only apply to us linear beings. So looking back, now that you now how that sporting event last week came out, does that mean the players had no free will? Could they have chosen a different result?

I'm not sure I understand the objection.

 

[McBell]

Again, because I'm not saying that God's knowledge effects ANYTHING. I'm saying that in order for God to have knowledge about the outcome of given decision, there can only be one possible outcome for a decision. There could be a million choices given to me, I'm only going to pick the one in which the future has already laid out.

Which completely ignores the whole "all knowing" attribute.
thus you are saying god is not god.
If god is all knowing then god knows every outcome for every choice you could possibly make.
That he knows which choice you will make has absolutely no bearing on your free will to make said choice.

Um, the only assumption I'm using is that God exists (which I don't even believe) which was provided by the OP, and the God knows everything if he does exist, which is pretty common amongst people who believe in God.

Bull ****.
You make another assumption when you posted:

I'm saying that in order for God to have knowledge about the outcome of given decision, there can only be one possible outcome for a decision.​

So you are making assumptions you are completely unaware you are making?

You stated earlier than it would be different if God pointed out my future to me, or something, that would conflict with my free will, right?

No, I said that god telling you about it before hand is a better "argument" against freewill.
However, you would still have to demonstrate that your being told would influence your decision and how god telling you is different from me telling you.

 

[dust1n]

Which completely ignores the whole "all knowing" attribute.
thus you are saying god is not god.
If god is all knowing then god knows every outcome for every choice you could possibly make.
That he knows which choice you will make has absolutely no bearing on your free will to make said choice.

Don't follow.

Bull ****.
You make another assumption when you posted:

I'm saying that in order for God to have knowledge about the outcome of given decision, there can only be one possible outcome for a decision.​

So you are making assumptions you are completely unaware you are making?

Well, technically I'm making a slew of assumptions:

"Basic Argument for Theological Fatalism
(1)
Yesterday God infallibly believed T. [Supposition of infallible foreknowledge]
(2)
If E occurred in the past, it is now-necessary that E occurred then. [Principle of the Necessity of the Past]
(3)
It is now-necessary that yesterday God believed T. [1, 2]
(4)
Necessarily, if yesterday God believed T, then T. [Definition of “infallibility”]
(5)
If p is now-necessary, and necessarily (p → q), then q is now-necessary. [Transfer of Necessity Principle]
(6)
So it is now-necessary that T. [3,4,5]
(7)
If it is now-necessary that T, then you cannot do otherwise than answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am. [Definition of “necessary”]
(8)
Therefore, you cannot do otherwise than answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am. [6, 7]
(9)
If you cannot do otherwise when you do an act, you do not act freely. [Principle of Alternate Possibilities]
(10)
Therefore, when you answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am, you will not do it freely. [8, 9]"

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/free-will-foreknowledge/

No, I said that god telling you about it before hand is a better "argument" against freewill.
However, you would still have to demonstrate that your being told would influence your decision and how god telling you is different from me telling you.

If God told me I'm going to eat broccoli for dinner tomorrow, and I don't eat it, God isn't all knowing. If I do end up eating it, God is all knowing, and I had no will in the matter? Is this correct?

 

[McBell]

If God told me I'm going to eat broccoli for dinner tomorrow, and I don't eat it, God isn't all knowing. If I do end up eating it, God is all knowing, and I had no will in the matter? Is this correct?

False dichotomy
no

 

[McBell]

Don't follow.

I do not know how to dumb it down further.
Sorry.

 

[The Sparrow]

I do not know how to dumb it down further.
Sorry.

I have to agree with dust1n on this one. I did the same argument years ago on another board.

Perhaps this will help. If it 'can be known' whether I will choose to eat an apple or an orange for lunch tomorrow, then how can I possibly have free will to change my mind or choose freely tomorrow at lunch.

1. Today at 1:00 I ask God what I will choose to eat for lunch tomorrow.
2. God knows ahead of my actually making the choice what my choice will be because he is all knowing.
3. God can tell me what my choice will be, because he is all powerful.
4. Therefore at 1:05 today God tells me he sees that I will choose to eat an apple at noon tomorrow.
5. its 1:06 pm - can I still exercise free will and change my mind and eat an orange tomorrow?

It's not so much god knowing that limits my free will, its that it CAN be known that suggests a deterministic universe - therefore no real free will.

 

[dust1n]

I do not know how to dumb it down further.
Sorry.

"If god is all knowing then god knows every outcome for every choice you could possibly make.
That he knows which choice you will make has absolutely no bearing on your free will to make said choice."

That he knows which I choice does have no bearing. In order for him to know, the future my necessarily be determined. It matters not that God knows all the choices I could "possibly make" because if God already knows with certainty which choice I will make, it is impossible for me to make any other choice, because for it to be possible for God to know with certainty, the future is certain.

If the future was uncertain, how can God have any certainty? If the future is certain, do how are ever in a state of free will? How are we free in this scenario? What does that look like?

False dichotomy
no

I'm sorry, how so? What options are there besides eating the broccoli and not eating the broccoli?
It's assumed God knows whether I'm going to eat the broccoli or not per the OP. Either I'm going to eat or I'm not going to eat it. Is this not the case? Is there some other option between doing something and not doing something?

 

[Skwim]

I have to agree with dust1n on this one. I did the same argument years ago on another board.

Perhaps this will help. If it 'can be known' whether I will choose to eat an apple or an orange for lunch tomorrow, then how can I possibly have free will to change my mind or choose freely tomorrow at lunch.

By saying "I will choose to eat an apple or an orange for lunch tomorrow," you've implied a freedom of will to choose. So tomorrow you can most definitely "choose freely tomorrow at lunch." Now, if you can't choose freely tomorrow at lunch, then saying, ""I will choose to eat an apple or an orange for lunch tomorrow," is untrue. You won't be choosing any such thing.

1. Today at 1:00 I ask God what I will choose to eat for lunch tomorrow.
2. God knows ahead of my actually making the choice what my choice will be because he is all knowing.
3. God can tell me what my choice will be, because he is all powerful.
4. Therefore at 1:05 today God tells me he sees that I will choose to eat an apple at noon tomorrow.
5. its 1:06 pm - can I still exercise free will and change my mind and eat an orange tomorrow?

It's not so much god knowing that limits my free will, its that it CAN be known that suggests a deterministic universe - therefore no real free will.

Sorry, but choice and all of its cognates are meaningless. #2 is meaningless because you can't actually make a choice that god would know. Just as #3 is meaningless because god can't tell you what your choice will be.

 

[The Sparrow]

By saying "I will choose to eat an apple or an orange for lunch tomorrow," you've implied a freedom of will to choose.

Sure, for the sake of the argument - that is - that I supposedly have free will.

So tomorrow you can most definitely "choose freely tomorrow at lunch."

If I really have free will, yes. That is, if right up to the second before noon on tuesday I can change my mind and flip back and forth between orange and apple.

Now, if you can't choose freely tomorrow at lunch, then saying, ""I will choose to eat an apple or an orange for lunch tomorrow," is untrue. You won't be choosing any such thing.

It sounds to me like you are arguing there is a paradox in what I am presenting - which is my point.

Sorry, but choice and all of its cognates are meaningless. #2 is meaningless because you can't actually make a choice that god would know. Just as #3 is meaningless because god can't tell you what your choice will be.

I'm having trouble following you.
My point is that free will and determinism are incompatible. If it can be known monday at 1:05 that I will choose an apple on tuesday at noon, then as of 1:06 monday, I cannot choose an orange.
That's why we are left with the paradox at number 5.
IF god says to me monday at 1:05 you will choose an apple, then I cannot change my mind because it would mean god was wrong about my actual choice, meaning god is not all knowing. So at that point, since I cannot change my mind, I actually have no free will. Now since all would be true whether or not god actually told it to me or not, I never really have free will, god knows at my birth already every choice I will make. IF he can know them, they are already set in stone at my birth. In other words, not free, but already determined.
If god cannot tell me monday at 1:05 what my choice will be, then there are gaps in his knowlege, and therefore he is not all knowing.

 

[Willamena]

What coercion exists with god knowing?

Truth.

 

[Skwim]

Sure, for the sake of the argument - that is - that I supposedly have free will.


If I really have free will, yes. That is, if right up to the second before noon on tuesday I can change my mind and flip back and forth between orange and apple.


It sounds to me like you are arguing there is a paradox in what I am presenting - which is my point.



I'm having trouble following you.
My point is that free will and determinism are incompatible. If it can be known monday at 1:05 that I will choose an apple on tuesday at noon, then as of 1:06 monday, I cannot choose an orange.
That's why we are left with the paradox at number 5.
IF god says to me monday at 1:05 you will choose an apple, then I cannot change my mind because it would mean god was wrong about my actual choice, meaning god is not all knowing. So at that point, since I cannot change my mind, I actually have no free will. Now since all would be true whether or not god actually told it to me or not, I never really have free will, god knows at my birth already every choice I will make. IF he can know them, they are already set in stone at my birth. In other words, not free, but already determined.
If god cannot tell me monday at 1:05 what my choice will be, then there are gaps in his knowlege, and therefore he is not all knowing.

Sorry about the confusion. I agree that free will and determinism are certainly incompatible, but more importantly that free will doesn't even exist. But I don't feel the argument that god knows the future and therefore negates free will is a convincing one.

Looking at it from the free will point of view; while god's knowledge of what I will do in the future means I will do no differently, it doesn't mean that what I will do is not chosen. Why can't "what god sees me doing next week" be something I choose to do then?

 

[Geoff-Allen]

If I don't know what I am likely 2 be doin from one moment 2 the next, how can God possibly know?

 

[Skwim]

If I don't know what I am likely 2 be doin from one moment 2 the next, how can God possibly know?

He's got you on film.

 

[The Sparrow]

... Why can't "what god sees me doing next week" be something I choose to do then?

In a general sense I could be ok with that, but in the specific scenario I listed, can you see the paradox it creates around #5?

And frankly, I would call myself a determinist too.And I agree, free will depends on something being possible that is not deterministic.
But if it is not deterministic, it cannot be known ahead of it occurring. We can pretend that god can 'time travel' and go back in time to before the choice was made, but the idea that he can enter my 'time' and bring the knowledge of what I 'did' choose, creates some real problems for the idea that I subsequently can change my mind.