Does God control free will?

[ChrisP]

I personally don't think God ever retracts free will. If he did then we could blame our indiscretions on him or our non belief on him. I think we have free will until the day we die.

From a christian perspective, that's the smartest thing I've ever heard. From a chimp even !

The God you speak of, for me, is not the thing that gives us freedom of choice in the first place. We create our own freedom to choose.

 

[Endless]

The fact that I don't believe in free will is caused because I know everything that occurs in humans, including thought processes and decision making, is the effect of millions of reacting molecules, all of which are ruled by the laws of physics.

Yeah, but who controls the chemical reactions when it comes down to descion making? Who sets the chain of reactions in motion? An electrical signal? From where - where exactly does the whole process begin? Science hasn't even begun to comprehend the complexities of the human brain. All i know is that i can control what i do. Science cannot predict what i will think - and hence could never predict what i will do.

Could science have predicted that after a think, i would decide to....pick up one of my speakers? A random thing - no reason for doing so - yet i did it.

 

[Opethian]

Yeah, but who controls the chemical reactions when it comes down to descion making? Who sets the chain of reactions in motion? An electrical signal? From where - where exactly does the whole process begin?

Since so many factors are included in even one small decision, it's almost impossible to answer that question in practise. But what we do know, is that it's all just molecules reacting. The exact how and where isn't important, the basic premise is that molecules reacting in our body determine what we do and think. And what molecules do is set by physical laws. With neurotransmitters, signals are being transmitted through the nerves, they trigger the setting free of other enzymes, which start a cascade in the cell through receptors etc... you know the drill. The fact that in one decision, there are thousands or even millions of these processes going on, doesn't mean that the outcome couldn't be predicted in theory. There is not one part of it that is free of the laws of physics, and it is a fact that anything governed by the laws of physics can be calculated, and has only one possible outcome when given the correct starting information (thus the input a body would get from its environment by its senses). Thus, once at a certain point in time, the input is defined, and the processor, the body, is defined, the outcome is DETERMINED. No free will. No intersections. Just one road to take.

Science hasn't even begun to comprehend the complexities of the human brain. All i know is that i can control what i do. Science cannot predict what i will think - and hence could never predict what i will do.

It doesn't matter that we can't predict yet at this point what you do. What does matter is, that if we have uncovered all the processes that take place in the body, (which are after all physical and governed by set laws which we have mathematical and physical equations for) and we had an infinitely complex processor that could create a mathematical equation to model everything happening in a human body, with the correct environmental information, that we COULD predict what you would do. And if we can do that, it means that you have no free will.

Could science have predicted that after a think, i would decide to....pick up one of my speakers? A random thing - no reason for doing so - yet i did it.

In theory this is possible, not yet at this point though, since like you said we don't understand enough of the processes yet. In practise it will probably never happen either because the processes are incredibly complex, and understanding them all, and being able to create a mathematical equation that contains them all, is nearly impossible. But that doesn't change anything to the fact that it is theoretically possible to determine everything you do, if we had enough information and the ability to create an incredibly complex equation.

 

[ch'ang]

frubals on the post opethian, but there is one thing I have a problem with.

and has only one possible outcome when given the correct starting information

Quantum Mechanics has proved that the same starting conditions do not always mean the same results i.e. the Heisenberg uncertainty principle.

Oh and you would probabaly find my debate with AE interesting also since you seem to be thinking along the same lines as I do, http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30596&page=1

 

[Opethian]

Quantum Mechanics has proved that the same starting conditions do not always mean the same results i.e. the Heisenberg uncertainty principle.

Yes I am aware of this (I think I even included it in some of my previous posts, perhaps in the thread called "The soul"), but I don't think that this small uncertainty could have a real impact on a human's life. I think the scale of the being itself is too big compared to the differences that could be caused by the uncertainty. I could be wrong though, it's the only thing concerning the topic that I do not feel quite sure about.

 

[michel]

You believe it because the alternative disturbs you, Michel?

It doesn't 'disturb' me; it would simply be totally illogical, and against my beliefs. I am confident enough to say that my beliefs are not out of a need for a prop, nor for a purpose in life. My beliefs are....my beliefs.

 

[Yerda]

It doesn't 'disturb' me; it would simply be totally illogical, and against my beliefs. I am confident enough to say that my beliefs are not out of a need for a prop, nor for a purpose in life. My beliefs are....my beliefs.

Fair enough, I think I agree with a good deal of them myself, I was just curious.

Why do you think a life without purpose is illogical?

 

[Adstar]

But anything can happen between now and 20 years into the future that may cause us to decide differently. Or nothing at all could happen and we choose to buy a red car instead just because. That is what free will is.

God already knows that you will do, because God has seen all history from the very start. What is going to happen will happen because people will do what they will to do, God has planned long ago what to do when all this free will brings us to the end.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

Something i wrote a few years ago. It is relevant to the topic being discussed.

Fate Free will and Predestination

Let us think about Prophesy. If the future can be accurately foretold (which Christians must believe if they agree with what’s in the bible) than we must believe in a type of fate. Now free will supporters will say that yes the future has been foretold in the bible, in the book of revelations, but they are mayor world events, we still have free will on an individual level. So its up to us what our future is

Lets look at the book of Revelation. John was on the island of Patmos when God revealed the future to him, he saw the final judgment in process, now did he see a representation of what was to happen or was he actually transported through time to the final judgment and actually saw the final judgment in progress? You may be thinking what does it matter? Well if he was actually there at the final judgment and saw the great multitude standing before God then he would be looking at real people some of whom would not have been born until 100’s or maybe 1000’s of years after his lifetime. So he was looking at people who had not been born yet, (in his time) that had been born lived their lives believed or not believed, died and raised, which were being judged. He saw the angles dividing the multitudes and casting some into the lake of fire. So even before they were born it was known what choices they were going to make and therefore their ultimate fate.

It may seem to you that I am supporting the predestination view; well in a way I am and in another way I am not. Let me explain. If God knows the future to the detail that I have suggested above, than he knows what choices people will make during their lives even before they are born. So we still have free will it’s just that God already knows what choices we are going to make.

So to use an analogy The history of existence is like a real life documentary and God has got the tape and can F-Forward it and knows the outcome beforehand. The people who are in the documentary are free to say and do what they want and they say and do what they want. From that tape he has already written down in his book (the book of life) who he has selected for his next production and who gets the chop.

I hope I have explained my thoughts clearly enough. I can tell you it’s not easy explaining something like this using words.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Jerrell]

This is a INteresting Topic. ONe must UNderstand God Created us Free moral Agents. To make our own Choices. God does not control our choices but only foresees them. He is not a slave master, but a loving God.

 

[shekhar25]

Can God retract free will? Answer: NO

Would God retract free will, if the situation seemed to call for such an action? Answer: NO

Has God retracted free will in the past? (From any individual or group?) Answer: NO

Will God retract free will in the future? Answer: NO

I am not trying to be rude with my NO answers here. These are infact very good questions. But i believe, there is no GOD outside somewhere protecting us, irrespective of the power inside of us. If you think deeply, you will understand that the concept of GOD, Devil, Good and Bad, all of them, arise inside of us, in the form of thought. The answers are all YES for the above questions if the GOD is replaced with humans. We can retract free will. We can call for such an action.

 

[finalfrogo]

God gives us free will. But to those who harden their hearts against God, God can send them strong delusion to harden their hearts even more. This is what happened to Pharaoh when Moses was used by God to free the Israelites from Egypt. God can use people who have rejected Him as well as people who have accepted Him.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Why would God punish deluded people with more delusions?

 

[finalfrogo]

If god was all knowing he would know your future, hence it would be predetermined and you would not have free will. If you do have free will then god could not be all knowing because if he was you would not have free will.

Incorrect; consider this: God simply knows what decisions we will make, therefore He is omniscient and we still retain free will.

 

[finalfrogo]

Wrong if god knows what you are going to do you do with 100% certianty then you do not have a choice in the matter.

No. Humans have the ability to influence their future. God knows precisely how they will change it and what it will become. Humans still retain their ability.

 

[Jerrell]

God knows what Choice you will make, he doesn't make the hoice for you. You do have Free will, use it and choose Jesus today if u havent already...(^_^).

 

[Krie]

I do not think that god has the power to control anything that you don't want him to. however, if you submitt yourself to that "God" and you hold fear to that god you are forever under their control

 

[Jerrell]

The God of Christianity and Jews is diffrent from all gods. Now when u get into the control area, it depends on wihch "god" you are speaking of. God(Elohim) does not control you, when you submit yourself to him you are still free to act as you wish, you are never roboticly controlled.

 

[finalfrogo]

use it and choose Jesus today if u havent already...(^_^).

Right...

 

[finalfrogo]

The God of Christianity and Jews is diffrent from all gods.

What do you mean? Muslims consider their God to be equivalent to that of Christianity and Judaism, and Hinduism considers all gods to be manifestations of a divine essence. Furthermore, not everyone would agree that the God of Christianity and the God of Judaism are equivalent. Explain why you think that the God of Christianity and the God of Judaism are the same, while all other gods are different.

 

[Adstar]

Why would God punish deluded people with more delusions?

Because they hate what is good and love what is evil. People who reject the Love of the truth are given over to deception, Not because they are decieved but because they mock the truth and reject the Love of God (Jesus)

2 Thessalonians 2
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Luke 8
10 And He said, “To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that ‘ Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days