does god exist?

[Ceridwen018]

Kids know what their parents want them to do as well, however they don't always obey if they don't have someone present to enforce the rules.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

And Muslims believe God gave us the Koran, and Jews believe God gave us only the Old Testament, and...oh never mind. Man wrote all of those instructions--not God. If God wanted us to have instructions, he'd write it into our DNA, not have a bunch of men write it on paper to compete with what thousands of other men wrote on paper, and over which the differing interpretations would lead to division and war.

 

[Linus]

And Muslims believe God gave us the Koran, and Jews believe God gave us only the Old Testament,

Yes they do. People believe whatever they want to belive, and regardless of that belief we still have our entire lives, according to the christians, to be redeemed of our sins and avoid eternal punishment.

and...oh never mind. Man wrote all of those instructions--not God.

That's a matter of opinion, but anyway...

If God wanted us to have instructions, he'd write it into our DNA, not have a bunch of men write it on paper to compete with what thousands of other men wrote on paper, and over which the differing interpretations would lead to division and war.

Who are we to question God's ways? Isaiah 55:8 says that God's ways are not ours. If God wanted to do all that He very well could have. But the simple fact of the matter is that He didn't. He gave us His word (wichever one you believe it to be) and it is up to us to act accordingly.

 

[scratch]

I agree with the DNA argument. Also I think it's a bunch of arse that because of what we've done in our average 70-80 years of life, that we should be judged for it. The universe has been around for billions of years and this 70 years of space supposably determain what happens to us for the rest of forever. Linus your arguments are full of holes. GIve up now and move to utah. Also what "supposeably" happened to people before religion? what then?

 

[Ceridwen018]

Yes they do. People believe whatever they want to belive, and regardless of that belief we still have our entire lives, according to the christians, to be redeemed of our sins and avoid eternal punishment.

I think you're missing the point here a little. The point is, is that EVERY one of these religions believes you have your whole life to turn away from sin and sign up for their religion. Christianity is no different from any of those others. It has no unique factors which separate it from other religions or that attest to it being 'more true' than other religions.

That's a matter of opinion, but anyway...

It's a matter of logic, actually. You have no proof or evidence that it WAS divinely inspired. However, there is plenty of evidence that it wasn't, such as the fact that most of the bible's more mythologically based stories and ideas have been copied from the pagan religions it was competing with back in the day. The concept of Jesus and of eating his body and blood is directly copied from ancient Mithraism. The Catholic church actually addressed this in Medeival times. Their verdict? That Mithraism copied it from the bible, even though Mithraism beat out the bible by a few thousand years. How did they say this was possible? Well you see, satan sent demons back in time with the story of Jesus to re-write it as Mithraism so in the future people would be tempted to not believe in the bible because they're using logic. Do you buy that?

Who are we to question God's ways? Isaiah 55:8 says that God's ways are not ours. If God wanted to do all that He very well could have. But the simple fact of the matter is that He didn't. He gave us His word (wichever one you believe it to be) and it is up to us to act accordingly.

First of all, why would god give you a questioning nature if he didn't want you to question?

Secondly, all I have to say is make up your mind. I hear all over the place that we are made in god's image, and that we must follow the bible so we can someday be like god. Here however, you state that god's ways are not ours, so trying to be like god is comparable to a mouse in a circular maze--it's pointless because it can't be done.

If the bible is true, and if all religious ideas are true, then god is not all-good by human standards of good and evil.

 

[tumble_weed]

Hmm...Some good points.... Warning: this is going to be long...

dan,

You would rather put your faith into a religious 'theory' with no evidence because it is accepted as fact by the church, rather than in several possible scientific theories which are backed by evidence and which have the potential of gaining more evidence?

I agree, the fact is that science is based on empirical research and religious beliefs are based of faith. Science systematically aims to find factual evidence for and against different ideas but religion is based on emotions. The fact is science shows us what is real and what isn't so we can become informed, religion mainly focuses us on affective feelings. Faith can never give us facts but instead it can only give us beliefs and feelings to judge the world by.

"...
So we have this cactus. Now imagine a giant cactus that covers the entire earth, has absolute control over us all, and knows everything. This is also invisible, and cannot be sensed. You got that image in your head?...."

A similar analogy can be made with absolutely anything, which means that I can say for instance that life is being controlled by magical invisible shoe laces or candelabras or nostril hair and of course cacti...etc...But anything that I suggest I will always have the same amount of circumstantial evidence as any religion has to promote that God exists

Quote: (Originally Posted by scratch)

If god exists then who created god.




I believe that if someone created God then you would have to believe that someone created that being. Then in turn someone would have to have created that being. And then someone would have created that, and so on. The reasoning is seems illogical to me.

then why just stop at the absence of just one god. If you can admit that an endless chain of other gods didn’t create God, why is it necessary for the universe to be created by a god at all?

I don't believe that science has proven anything because God is above science. Remember that those who believe in God believe that He is all-powerful. If He doesn't want science to detect Him, then it won't.

Why does god need to conceal himself, or is it not god that wants himself to be concealed rather than the people who believe in god just making it impossible for god to actually be detected?

Where is the fear in loving God and appreciating His goodness, grace, and mercy toward us?

where is the fear in being forced to go to hell if you step out of line?

Yes but God created it and he cares for ALL of His creations. The Universe is big, But God created it and He is in control of it.

What about Jesus is he not cared about more so than "normal" humans. It seems that Jesus is elevated above the rest of humanity and not only that elevated about all other animals and other single celled organisms and even inanimate objects. Man was the species who God spread the word of himself to. Maybe God does care for all of his creating but it does not seem like he cares for everything equally.

Also how do we know if god is in control of the universe i mean we don't even know how big the universe is, or what it is, how do we know he's in control who told you?

good point. Perhaps there are actually multiple gods...the god we know might just control this side of the universe, for all we know there could be thousands/millions/billions of other gods who control other parts of the universe.

Also this may be a bit off topic but if there are other species of intelligent life out there somewhere in the universe has god given them the same version of the bible and do they have their own Jesus who died for their sins? What about other religions? Did god give them the same abilities and capabilities as us?

The manner in which I came to this knowledge transcends scientific methods

Huh? Can you clarify this science is what has the ability to explain things. how can something transcend science. How can you so assuredly say that it's true, this seems to be just blind faith much like Irenicas' cactus example.

I have witnessed the love of God in all its glory.

So have all the babies who have been blown up by suicide bombers and all the people who have died by being struck down by lightning.

You speak with such conviction and subscribe to such a belief.

well, same to you, buddy!

God really and sincerely wants us to worship Him but He wants us to have the choice.

why would god sincerely want us to worship him? That to me seems highly egotistical!

That would be like a parent killing a child for not going to bed on
time.

XD! That really made me laugh. Seems sort of Monty Python-esque

oh yeah but anyway good point, the punishment seems very disproportionate as conversely does the reward for being good (ie going to heaven)

If I missed anyone's argument, please tell me. I'm in the debating mood.

ha so am I...as you can see...

If/then statements are called inferences.

true. By that same token...Good exists therefore God exists is also an inference.

You can no more predict His will than you can lick the back of your own neck.

What about the person in the Guinness book of records who has the longest tongue in the world. But anyway the point is that if you had an abnormally long tongue you could lick the back of your neck. Would you then be able to predict god's will then?

(your perspective is just as tainted by subjectivity as everyone else's)

excuse me! Weren’t you the person who also said

My faith is not based on scientific proof, but I would sooner deny the rising of the sun than I would the actuality of an omniscient, omnipotent God. I know He exists with more conviction than you know you exist.

I find that contradictory unless you can point out why it isn't? It seems your entire system of beliefs is based on subjectivity in ways which "transcends scientific methods" but yet you go on to condemn Yawgmothsavatar's opinions while you enlighten us about your "evidence [which] is more concrete than any scientific theory "

why can't he just change his own rules to make good be able to exist without evil? It's an illogical concept of course, but do you think god is ruled by the laws of logic? I say that god created logic, therefore he can manipulate them as he sees fit.

I agree, if we say that God created everything god must have also created logic, so technically to benefit us he could also change his logic with his omnipotence. This to me seems logical, however, if logic changes this may be a pathetic argument.

Yes they do. People believe whatever they want to belive, and regardless of that belief we still have our entire lives, according to the Christians, to be redeemed of our sins and avoid eternal punishment.

the irony of this as I see it is that being eternally rewarded is just as equally bad, in fact I think doing anything for an eternity would be a punishment regardless of what it is, just remember how long an eternity is...

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mr_Spinkles)

and...oh never mind. Man wrote all of those instructions--not God.



That's a matter of opinion, but anyway...

I would have to disagree, they were all written by the human hand

Hmm alright that's enough and well I have nothing else to rebut....but feel free to rebut my ideas...

 

[scratch]

Tumble weed!!!! out of all the people who have responded to my topic. Yours has to be by far the best. I think you have valid points.

I was thinking.

Why indeed (this is in tumble weeds excellent reply) does god need to conceal himself/herself. Why must he/she not let science disprove his/her existance.
Don't give me that ours is not to question the will of god. I think that, that is just a loophole in the bible and the people who made the christian relgion up. So that no one will question there control.

 

[Lightkeeper]

Maybe we are given the responsibility to clear our minds and eyes so we can see. In other words, maybe we can see if we put ourselves in the place to see it.

 

[(Q)]

Maybe we are given the responsibility to clear our minds and eyes so we can see.

Is there something other than photons that the eyes are supposed to collect and synthesize? If so, there is a Nobel prize waiting.

maybe we can see if we put ourselves in the place to see it.

What place? Are you referring to some special location? Considering that god is supposed to be everywhere, that should not be an issue.

 

[Lightkeeper]

Many religions tell us that the Divine is within us. Jesus also taught that the Divine is within us, but his message has been highly misconstrued. What these religions tell us is when we peel away the layers of misconception, we can see the Divine within. i.e "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see, God."

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Who are we to question God's ways?

There appears to be a misunderstanding--I am not questioning God's ways, I am questioning human beliefs about God's ways. Unlike God's ways, human beliefs can and should be questioned.

 

[Allan]

And Muslims believe God gave us the Koran, and Jews believe God gave us only the Old Testament, and...oh never mind. Man wrote all of those instructions--not God. If God wanted us to have instructions, he'd write it into our DNA, not have a bunch of men write it on paper to compete with what thousands of other men wrote on paper, and over which the differing interpretations would lead to division and war.

It is written into our DNA but it is deactivated by our own mental ability. Part of that ability is to weight personal opinion with own belief.

Input from the natural senses overides and holds everyone in that realm.

Interaction with other humans is more animal based and this is made normal by a balance of chemicals or hormones through the gland system.

It is possible to purposely and actively change this balance and then if it has been done right God does exist.

Some mental illness causes this to happen but not correctly.

It is belief and ultimately in the mind. If each person reached this, no one would need to teach another, from this it can be seen why it is hidden.

Science could go one step further and discover that matter is manifested, dimensional time travel is possible and that the mind connected to the earth nature will not be able to use this technology.

A transformation or renewal of the mind will need to happen and not every one will be able to do it.

This is what it is all about.

Religion , science, there are too many agendas power plays, points to prove, alternate beliefs, opinions, cultures, languages, and then there is business, commerce, profits.

The obvious will not be accepted.

God does exist. Humans need to be actively purified cleaned up in the mind, the inside, to recieve all the blessings that are in store for those who can believe.

Mankind is heading for a huge unnecessary destruction but why doesn't God step in and stop it.

The way I understand if a person is no use to God they are no use at all.

But there are still indviduals who are responding to the upward call.

 

[scratch]

firstly why can't we question gods belief, why not? What has he/she got to hide from us? Secondly QUOTE: "The way I understand if a person is no use to God they are no use at all." So god is just using us for his/her own personal puppet show? That seems a bit sad. So your trying to say that everyone who doesn't believe in god has a mental disease?

 

[Allan]

firstly why can't we question gods belief, why not? What has he/she got to hide from us? Secondly QUOTE: "The way I understand if a person is no use to God they are no use at all." So god is just using us for his/her own personal puppet show? That seems a bit sad. So your trying to say that everyone who doesn't believe in god has a mental disease?

To be truthful God hides nothing but religion, science and politics of big business that's another matter.

In revelation it states what God is going to do "and (God) should destroy those who destroy the earth"
rev 11, 18

The problem is we have out of control Godless people messing up our nest.

They deny God exists and then play God themselves with other peoples mental environment and physical environment. Forcing evryone to take part in their experiment, nuclear, chemical, genetic and social engineering, etc.

The familly is put under pressure although there does need to be personal responsibility.

I question everything but I am one little speck in a vast universe. I have insights and some conclusions.

To go further would be like telling the boss how to run the company he started many years previously.

I can completely understand why some one wouldn't believe or comprehend God.

God is close, but as a human, normal interaction with others builds mental strength, keeping an emmotional well being. It is this self empowerment that creates a barrier, because to self survive all have to be hardhearted.

I've worked in some hard places and some easy places and have met a lot of people. The people who I have kept company with and liked the most have given me a hard chore because I would like to connect with them at a higher level but they won't go there. They enjoy the base nature, the drinking, the drugs, the dirty Jokes, the same old talk, (boring)

I've had a taste of something that is pretty good but the natural is always there, the momentum has be kept going.

Giving up the natural is a bit like the alcoholic who is never truly cured.

I experienced the reality of God many years ago and sad to say I have given God a good excuse to be angry with me and blot me out, the strangest experience ever.

I say to some that I made God angry and survived. I am hoping never to go there again.

I don't think God can instantly create individual character (or does'nt want to) and that is why there seems to be this hands off earth experience. God is recreating individual God beings totally powerful in there own right. It is like changing genetics, taking on a new hereditary line.

A selection process is taking place. It is probably easy to be angry about this.
The reality is humans are out of control against other humans and it is understanding why this is that needs questioning it seems like a mental disorder of total self destruction and it isn't just in the obvious terrorism but corporations and governments and locally in individuals.

If someone set off some nuc weapons who knows what agendas would be played out, some others might take an oportunity. All hell would break loose.

I think its better to question human behaviour.

I can only tell you there is something better, death comes to all of us and I've often said that I'm happy to experience it just to get those horrible destructive destroying individuals off the earth and give others a bit of freedom to make choices.

 

[scratch]

So what you are trying to say is every person who doesn't believe in god is a bad person? that's a gross genralisation. I just think that what your saying is judgemental.

 

[Linus]

firstly why can't we question gods belief, why not? What has he/she got to hide from us?

He has nothing to hide from us. We cannot question Him simply because we are not as wize or powerful as Him. He created us and knows what is best for us. So how can we put that power and wizdom under subjection?

 

[Allan]

So what you are trying to say is every person who doesn't believe in god is a bad person? that's a gross genralisation. I just think that what your saying is judgemental.

God is. God is true. What hides God from everyone?

It is all the normal reality of being strong when people are trying to get at you.

In normal speech we use terms like; trying to get into my head, I got at him, I made him angry, head bashing, brain washing, believe in self, self empowerment.

Some people are lets say "jealous". Another person could make another "jealous" on purpose.

Thankfully we mature with mental abilities to rebuff and then retain our own belief. Some people use their mental power to hurt others and some to defend themselves mentally.

The people who cannot are the emmotional unstable, the mentally ill and even those who retaliate with violence.

A good person or a bad person use the same power.

A person can create a safe environment and be unchanged on the inside but delude themselves into thinking that they were "good".

From God's perspective using God power for our "self" creates conflict between all humans as we see in all human endeavour.

God's plan for everyone is to have freedom from the realm of the mind with all the situations that are created.

We need to learn how to see beyond our "self".

In modern terms it could be described as changing what is regarded as the normal brain chemistry into another that stimulates a different hormonal balance. People do this with drugs now, but this isn't the right way to go about it.

There is no mind picture of what is to be achieved, only the human perspective is seen mentally. This can go to a deep level.

Jesus resisted connecting mentally with other humans right to the death.

Humans have the mind of human nature. Jesus by resisting this mind had another nature that was acceptable to God. This other nature is perfect and has its own mind. This new mind is available to all those who are able to humble the "self", no attitude and go through a process of having the new nature.

God is instantly aware if a person enquires, asks out loud for God to be revealed. The thought needs to be there that God will answer, the belief that a reply will come needs to be there.

This is harder than it sounds. A good acting is an art and this goes just beyond that.

My first experience occurred spontaneously. I was not searching for any thing. I'd found bliss in my life.

I was made dramatically aware that God exists and my life probably became worse because of a difficulty in knowing what I do and having a problem in the reality of life situations and not getting past human interaction.

I do not practise my spirituality on any one, I am quick to discuss, to rebuff if someone says something that is clearly wrong just as I would expect them to give me a hard time If I hadn't thought something through properly.

I even used to go into Christian Churches but I started to feel I was Just doing it for sport as I couldn't believe how deluded they were. This was bad on my part. I paid a penality because I didn't realize how much power certain individuals have in the human realm of the mind. The congregation is usually a slave to one persons power.

The spiritual path is there for anybody but the truth of what needs to be escaped from is not understood.

 

[Ceridwen018]

He has nothing to hide from us. We cannot question Him simply because we are not as wize or powerful as Him. He created us and knows what is best for us. So how can we put that power and wizdom under subjection?

Linus, don't you see the endless and unecessary circle that is created with this reasoning? If you never question, you run the risk of believing in something incorrect for your entire life.

The story of Job really ticks me off. God is a complete jerk to Job just to prove a point to satan, and then when Job questions god and tells him to lay off, god has the gall to lecture him with the whole "where were you when the foundations of the earth were laid" speech. Pretty much in your eyes, god can do no wrong.....yet wrong is present everyday and in everything. How do you explain that?

 

[scratch]

allen, what you said didn't really answer anything it was sort of just a lot of preaching your not that extremist minister from destiny church are you?

I don't know I say there's got to be more to this life than what you see but I can't really see it in any religion. I just think they were made in the early days to control people, who were having doubt in there government.

 

[Linus]

Linus, don't you see the endless and unecessary circle that is created with this reasoning? If you never question, you run the risk of believing in something incorrect for your entire life.

But that's the thing. I have questioned. I've questioned everything I believe in. I have questioned my faith because it is a natural part of life to question. I think every christian comes to a point in his or her life where they have doubts. And in the end they either abandon God's word or they stay true to it. I, personally, have found the answers to my questions. And I have found them in God and His word. Other people find them in the Koran or the Books of Mormon, or in the Tao or whatever. But in the words of Joshua 24:15-...as for me and for my house, we will serve the Lord.

The story of Job really ticks me off. God is a complete jerk to Job just to prove a point to satan, and then when Job questions god and tells him to lay off, god has the gall to lecture him with the whole "where were you when the foundations of the earth were laid" speech. Pretty much in your eyes, god can do no wrong.....yet wrong is present everyday and in everything. How do you explain that?

Wrong is present in everyday and in everything because of people. God cannot do wrong. God is perfect. Humans are the ones who are fallible. We create wrong because we (unknowingly or not) rebell against His word and will.