Does God hate amputees?

[Trailblazer]

Jesus healed to make a point that He was God, something the people needed convincing of. It wasn't to actually heal the person to make them better it was to show that God had actual power.

It was recorded and passed on so there is no reason for God to keep on doing it.

I do not believe Jesus was God. Aside from the fact that Jesus never claimed to be God, if the Bible is correct in the way God is described, there is no way that Jesus can be God. God is Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, and Immaterial, and Jesus did not have those attributes. That means that logically speaking Jesus was not God.

That being said, I believe that Jesus was a Manifestation of God, and as a Manifestation of God, Jesus had the power to do miracles.
Whether or not Jesus actually performed some or all the miracles described in the Bible is not provable.

Question.—It is recorded that miracles were performed by Christ. Are the reports of these miracles really to be accepted literally, or have they another meaning? It has been proved by exact science that the essence of things does not change, and that all beings are under one universal law and organization from which they cannot deviate; and, therefore, that which is contrary to universal law is impossible.​

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Answer.—The Holy Manifestations are the sources of miracles and the originators of wonderful signs. For Them, any difficult and impracticable thing is possible and easy. For through a supernatural power wonders appear from Them; and by this power, which is beyond nature, They influence the world of nature. From all the Manifestations marvelous things have appeared.​

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But in the Holy Books an especial terminology is employed, and for the Manifestations these miracles and wonderful signs have no importance. They do not even wish to mention them. For if we consider miracles a great proof, they are still only proofs and arguments for those who are present when they are performed, and not for those who are absent.... Some Answered Questions, p. 100​

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22: MIRACLES​

 

[Tinkerpeach]

I do not believe Jesus was God. Aside from the fact that Jesus never claimed to be God, if the Bible is correct in the way God is described, there is no way that Jesus can be God. God is Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, and Immaterial, and Jesus did not have those attributes. That means that logically speaking Jesus was not God.

That being said, I believe that Jesus was a Manifestation of God, and as a Manifestation of God, Jesus had the power to do miracles.
Whether or not Jesus actually performed some or all the miracles described in the Bible is not provable.

Question.—It is recorded that miracles were performed by Christ. Are the reports of these miracles really to be accepted literally, or have they another meaning? It has been proved by exact science that the essence of things does not change, and that all beings are under one universal law and organization from which they cannot deviate; and, therefore, that which is contrary to universal law is impossible.​

​

Answer.—The Holy Manifestations are the sources of miracles and the originators of wonderful signs. For Them, any difficult and impracticable thing is possible and easy. For through a supernatural power wonders appear from Them; and by this power, which is beyond nature, They influence the world of nature. From all the Manifestations marvelous things have appeared.​

​

But in the Holy Books an especial terminology is employed, and for the Manifestations these miracles and wonderful signs have no importance. They do not even wish to mention them. For if we consider miracles a great proof, they are still only proofs and arguments for those who are present when they are performed, and not for those who are absent.... Some Answered Questions, p. 100​

​

22: MIRACLES​

You need to understand what the trinity is. Jesus is part of God.

Think of it as God being water, there are still the forms of ice and steam contained within it but neither can can exist without God. As long as God exists there will always be ice and steam.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Do you believe God can miraculously heal people?
If so, why is God so discriminatory with whom he heals?

I do not believe healing happens before our eyes, and even if it does its not for the purpose of proving anything to us. There is a Christian scripture in the NT letters that says God does not identify with our weaknesses. Another scripture says God does not respect any person more than another. The amputee is unlucky, as is the madman, the unfortunate man who cannot talk smoothly to the ladies, the hot mess, the prisoner, the oppressed, the slave...all of these horrible situations are unchangeable. Mothers pray like no one else, but they are ignored when their children die. Again and again no special favor appears. You can save untold millions of lives, and God takes no notice of you. You can be as humble as a stone. You can teach kings compassion or convert a dictator into a middle school math teacher, and it won't get your requests through to God.

I realize in stories about Elijah (like the one about a widow who receives her son from the dead) and Jesus and others in scriptures there appear to be situations where people pray and get special attention from God, however these are figures I think. Whatever the case is and whether they are real or figures: Every miracle in scripture has a teaching purpose, and the people involved are simply experiencing bad and good fortune. Their very lives are for the purpose of being there involved in that miracle. They exist to receive the miracle, just like Jesus is born to die and be resurrected. Special favors are not being granted to random individuals. Jesus is not some rando who prayed and got special attention for doing so. He was part of the plan, and the miracles were part of his existence not late additions to it.

Why then does Jesus do miracles when his heart is moved with compassion? This gets into theology of the nature of Jesus who begins as a human and then becomes divine. He represents what is possible for his church to accomplish. This is hinted at when he tells his disciples "You will do greater works than these." Again it is probably figures to teach us and not situations we are required to duplicate (raising the dead etc).

How do believers explain this?

Praying for a miracle is praying for a change to the entirety of time. Its about as foolish as asking God to stop Napoleon from being born. You can pray for it, but you are praying not to be born by doing so. God is not subject to time, so from that perspective all of time has already happened and is done. Therefore it equally makes sense to pray for a miracle in the past as it does for the future. What you and I seem to be experiencing is already done and part of History.

There is a possibility that our own existence is somewhat dreamlike and that ours is a reality which will fade and be replaced by a better one. You can pray for this, but its very different from praying for God to heal your amputated arm. A small change in time is a big change in the future of time. You're actually praying for the entire universe to change. You can do this, but don't expect to be born if your prayer is answered.

 

[danieldemol]

Why might God not magically prevent all suffering?

Because God has no interest in the material realm if God exists at all in my view

Why allow people to be unreasonable and not just force their compliance through mind control instead? Good questions to ponder.

Mind control is not required in my view.
People act according to their nature and nurture as it is in my view, so if God wanted to God could give them reasonable natures and materially nurture them God's self so that they acted correctly in accordance with their perfect nature and perfect nurture.

 

[Trailblazer]

You need to understand what the trinity is. Jesus is part of God.

Think of it as God being water, there are still the forms of ice and steam contained within it but neither can can exist without God. As long as God exists there will always be ice and steam.

I know what Christians believe about the Trinity.

I believe that Jesus is a Manifestation of God, but Jesus is not part of God because God cannot be divided into parts.

Baha’is believe in a Trinity, but it is different from the Christian Trinity belief. The detailed explanation is in this chapter: 27: THE TRINITY

In brief, here is how the Baha’i version of the Trinity operates.

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one in the sense that they are ‘one in Purpose.’ All three work together, but the Son and the Holy Spirit are not ‘part of God.’

God is exalted above anything that can ever be perceived so God remains in His own high place, on His Throne. God never descends to earth. God is forever One and cannot be divided into parts.

God sent Jesus from heaven and Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit from the womb of Mary into a human body. Later, after Jesus reached a certain age, God sent the Holy Spirit to Him and it descended upon Him like a dove when Jesus was baptized. After Jesus received the Holy Spirit from God the Father, Jesus brought the Holy Spirit to believers and it dwelt in believers.

The Holy Spirit does not enter the body, but rather it has a direct connection to the body through the soul, which is associated with the mind. That is what the indwelling Holy Spirit means to a Baha'i.

 

[chinu]

Maybe the god you are talking about prefers lizards to humans

I hope, you are not in need of a tail ?

 

[chinu]

Do you believe God can miraculously heal people?
If so, why is God so discriminatory with whom he heals?
It appears that God is only willing to heal ailments that can also be healed through natural means.
For example, people have prayed for God's help and recovered from cancer and other sicknesses, but the cause of the recovery is ambiguous (natural or mircacle?). On the other hand, it would be far less ambiguous if God healed an amputee by regenerating a new limb. That would truly be miraculous.

How do believers explain this?

Of course, healing an amputee is also possible through natural means.
That natural mean = Rebirth.

 

[ajay0]

Do you believe God can miraculously heal people?
If so, why is God so discriminatory with whom he heals?
It appears that God is only willing to heal ailments that can also be healed through natural means.
For example, people have prayed for God's help and recovered from cancer and other sicknesses, but the cause of the recovery is ambiguous (natural or mircacle?). On the other hand, it would be far less ambiguous if God healed an amputee by regenerating a new limb. That would truly be miraculous.

How do believers explain this?

I actually find amputees and handicapped people true paragons of courage and resourcefulness, and find them inspiring.

They have also succeeded in shaming me whenever I had indulged in self-pity. I am sure others may have had the same experience as well.

Ironically, I have seen and read of people endowed with good health succumb to despair for superficial reasons and engage in negative actions. Perhaps if they have had handicapped people for friends or acquaintances, they might have demonstrated better character and conduct through the influence of satsang meaning noble company.

So perhaps this is why the Divine brings handicapped people or amputees into existence, so that the average healthy person can learn wisdom from them on making the most of life even with limitations or lack.

 

[danieldemol]

So perhaps this is why the Divine brings handicapped people or amputees into existence, so that the average healthy person can learn wisdom from them on making the most of life even with limitations or lack.

Its a poor reason for inflicting suffering on someone in my view.
Perhaps you have not felt the suffering of a handicap yourself and thus can not empathise with them but I can.

 

[ajay0]

Its a poor reason for inflicting suffering on someone in my view.

But you should blame God for that, not me. I just offered some speculation on why God created amputees and handicapped people, which need not be true.

Perhaps you have not felt the suffering of a handicap yourself and thus can not empathise with them but I can.

I am glad that you are more empathetic, loving and compassionate than me. Hopefully, in the future I will be as noble as you are.

 

[Left Coast]

Because God has no interest in the material realm if God exists at all in my view

Interesting. So if someone has any interest in something or someone, they prevent any and all suffering from ever happening to them? They never cause or even allow them any pain or discomfort of any kind?

Mind control is not required in my view.
People act according to their nature and nurture as it is in my view, so if God wanted to God could give them reasonable natures and materially nurture them God's self so that they acted correctly in accordance with their perfect nature and perfect nurture.

Tomato tomahto in my view. If you create something so that it is incapable of ever doing anything but exactly what you want...that's a machine. Even non-human animals have more agency than that. Can you think of a reason God might create beings capable of not doing what he wants?

 

[ChristineM]

I hope, you are not in need of a tail ?

I have been one, as have we all. Its callec the coccyx.

 

[Trailblazer]

I actually find amputees and handicapped people true paragons of courage and resourcefulness, and find them inspiring.

So maybe that is one reason that God does not heal them. They serve as examples for us all and we can learn from them.

 

[Twilight Hue]

So maybe that is one reason that God does not heal them. They serve as examples for us all and we can learn from them.

Lucky them eh?

 

[Trailblazer]

Lucky them eh?

Most of them don't think in those terms. They just accept reality.
Besides, there is more than one way a person can be handicapped.

 

[danieldemol]

Interesting. So if someone has any interest in something or someone, they prevent any and all suffering from ever happening to them? They never cause or even allow them any pain or discomfort of any kind?

Humans have little power to avert suffering, but we are talking about an All-powerful God here. I would prevent any suffering etc of my loved ones if I could, wouldn't you?

Tomato tomahto in my view. If you create something so that it is incapable of ever doing anything but exactly what you want...that's a machine. Even non-human animals have more agency than that.

Are you suggesting that non-human animals are able to override their nature and nurture? I'd like to see the evidence of that. I think animals *are* just biological machines essentially.

Can you think of a reason God might create beings capable of not doing what he wants?

We already do what nature/nurture bids us to do in my view. Why would being at the mercy of a loving God be worse than being at the mercy of an indifferent nature?
Could a reasonable person not do what they want to do just because as a reasonable person they selected reasonable options? All changing our nature would do is change our wants from unreasonable things to reasonable things as I see it.

 

[Left Coast]

Humans have little power to avert suffering, but we are talking about an All-powerful God here. I would prevent any suffering etc of my loved ones if I could, wouldn't you?

No, personally I wouldn't. Right now I know someone who is incarcerated because he did something illegal (and immoral). He's suffering there as a result of his incarceration. I'm not in favor of just arbitrarily ending that suffering for the sake of ending it. Are you?

Are you suggesting that non-human animals are able to override their nature and nurture? I'd like to see the evidence of that. I think animals *are* just biological machines essentially.

I'm suggesting that anyone who has ever owned a pet understands that animals don't always do what we want. The evidence for that is legion. Surely you don't disagree?

We already do what nature/nurture bids us to do in my view. Why would being at the mercy of a loving God be worse than being at the mercy of an indifferent nature?
Could a reasonable person not do what they want to do just because as a reasonable person they selected reasonable options? All changing our nature would do is change our wants from unreasonable things to reasonable things as I see it.

Well a) this gets into a discussion about determinism which is perhaps beyond the scope of the thread. I haven't seen a good argument for determinism yet. But b) Why should we only be permitted by God to do reasonable things? Why must God not allow us the freedom to make poor choices? What are the actual steps of reasoning you're following here?

 

[dybmh]

we are talking about an All-powerful God here. I would prevent any suffering etc of my loved ones if I could, wouldn't you?

... all powerful and infinite which has implications on creating a material world apart and distinct from itself.

If your choice was binary:

create a world that included suffering with the opportunity for the world to rise above it

or

never create anything

what would you choose?

 

[danieldemol]

No, personally I wouldn't. Right now I know someone who is incarcerated because he did something illegal (and immoral). He's suffering there as a result of his incarceration. I'm not in favor of just arbitrarily ending that suffering for the sake of ending it. Are you?

So if you had the power to reform him such that he either wouldn't have made the choice to do something illegal in the first place, or wouldn't do it ever again post reformation, would you prefer your friend to have committed an immoral act and be suffering for it? That is the power God allegedly has.

I'm suggesting that anyone who has ever owned a pet understands that animals don't always do what we want. The evidence for that is legion. Surely you don't disagree?

Sure animals don't do what we want, but their choices are nonetheless constrained by their nature and nurture in my view.

Well a) this gets into a discussion about determinism which is perhaps beyond the scope of the thread. I haven't seen a good argument for determinism yet.

Nature is not purely deterministic, it has a random element to it. But if a choice is random then how free are we to choose it if it is a purely random result?

But b) Why should we only be permitted by God to do reasonable things? Why must God not allow us the freedom the make poor choices? What are the actual steps of reasoning you're following here?

In my view God didn't allow your friend the freedom to commit a good choice. His choice was either made by the response of his neural pathways, brain chemistry to his upbringing etc or it was purely random. In the case it was purely random how did your friend control a random outcome? Since God never gave him freedom to do a good choice in my view it seems to me only like substitution of like for like to not give him the freedom to make a bad choice.

I'll see if I can dig up a good video on why our choices are a product of nature and nurture for us to discuss later, but I'm pressed for time now.

 

[danieldemol]

... all powerful and infinite which has implications on creating a material world apart and distinct from itself.

If your choice was binary:

create a world that included suffering with the opportunity for the world to rise above it

or

never create anything

what would you choose?

Irrelevant, the choices of an All-powerful God are unlimited, *not* binary in my view