Does God have free will?

[Gambit]

I am saying "I don't know".

Okay.

 

[Gambit]

By the by, your definition of freewill as "doing whatever it is that you desire to do" rests on acting in accordance with your desires.

Yes, that's correct.

So, in a case where you desire to lift one thousand pounds, but can't, this would negate your freewill, all of which brings freewill down to a dependency on physical ability, which isn't what the freewill issue is about---at least not in common parlance.

First and foremost, I am asking if God has free will. If God does whatever he pleases to do, then God has free will (as I defined it). So, let's address that point first.

The freewill issue normally revolves around an attempt to "reconcile an element of freedom with the apparent determinism in a world of causes and effects, a world of events in a great causal chain."* So, the onus is on the freewill advocate to show why the "apparent determinism in a world of causes and effects" is a faulty.

Care to take a stab?

I'm not advocating that we do have free will. So, I fail to see why you are asking me this question.

 

[Sabour]

Does God have free will? Is God free to do whatever it is that he desires to do? If so, do we have free will? Are we free to do whatever it is that we desire to do? If not, then why do some (if not most) say that we have been endowed with free will?

I think the problem here is between our free will and destiny.

God has given us the ability to choose, but the outcome or destiny is controlled by God only.

If interested, read more about the Islamic perspective here Destiny and Free Will

 

[NulliuSINverba]

Is God free to do whatever it is that he desires to do?

Like .. create the universe?

Because if God was not obliged to create the universe, then it seems that creationists are obliged to accept at least a 50:50 coin flip on the universe existing as opposed to it not existing. Aren't we lucky to be here if this is indeed the case?

So much for lamely accusing naturalists of having nothing but blind faith in chance.

...

And if God was obliged to create the universe ... what does that say about allegations of his omnipotence?

Perhaps he's simultaneously all-powerful but unable to resist the urge to create? Perhaps a god isn't a god unless creation is involved? Ever heard of a god that created nothing? Perhaps if you're truly perfect, there's no need to create anything? Who knows?

Does God have free will?

That's a great question. It's difficult to square an omnipotent God with an omniscient God.

If God is free to know the future, then how can he change it? Doesn't it seem that a knowable future would have to remain unchangeable?

And it seems an inescapable conclusion that if God is free to change the future (and - presumably - this is what leads some if not all Christians to pray) then how can he possibly know a future that's continually subject to his ability to change it (presumably at the request of some if not all Christians)?

If so, do we have free will?

Another great question. How do you square a god that is allegedly omnipotent with free will? It's a conundrum.

Of course, the Bible readily indicates that (free or not) God meddles with humanity's will when it suits His Divine Agenda®:

'But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses." ~ Exodus 9:12

Even if Pharaoh had initially wanted to let the Israelites depart with no hassles, God opted to stack the deck against him to suit his own ends? Hmm. By all means: Feel free to argue that this scripture is true and that humanity also has free will.

"Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false" ~ 2 Thessalonians 2:11

Do you suppose he also sent us a strong delusion so that we may believe we have free will?

Are we free to do whatever it is that we desire to do?

I'd say no. We're free to attempt whatever we're able to do. As humans, there are severe limitations to our ability to actualize our desires. For instance, you may desire to literally sprout wings and fly around the room.

Perhaps humanity's limited ability to actualize our desires explains religion? It certainly explains fiction.

I'll leave it to you to determine if the distinction is necessary.

If not, then why do some (if not most) say that we have been endowed with free will?

Because the alternative seems so counterintuitive?

...

I'm inclined to believe that whatever free will we have is not actually to be manipulated by God, because the existence of supernatural intelligence(s) of any kind has not been demonstrated. Taking that as a starting point, it's difficult to see how supernatural forces could be exerted upon our minds.

Meanwhile, there is lots of interesting material available regarding human free will.

Here.
Here.

and

Here.

There is a ton more. Are you free to not read any of it?

 

[Gambit]

Unbounded.

The only way we could have freewill is if we were allowed to be in full control of our actions, influenced by nothing, and that's certainly not the case. Every single even that happens, down to the movement of the atom, has a cause and influences all events to happen.

There must be a reason for doing something, something leading up to that point cause the event. But we are restricted to making 'choices' by everything around us.

That's the point I am making in this thread. Obviously, we are not free to do whatever it is that we want to do.

 

[Gambit]

If we were not endowed with free will, (thus predestined as individuals), then certain passages of Scripture (at least in both sections of the Bible) would be meaningless. Thus when looking into the future, God must be exercising restraint and being selective. Real choice demands free will although there are boundaries set by our personal power along with the powerful effect of what we have been feeding our minds and hearts with recently.

You're not addressing the questions I asked in the OP of this thread. I'm asking a philosophical question, not a biblical one.

 

[Gambit]

As an Advaitan Hindu, I think the best answer to your question is ultimately there is only one free-will; God/Brahman. In fact there is only One and we are that One.

However, in our relative reality we have the illusion of free-will. But even our relative reality itself is an illusion..

Then "we" are not co-creators of the script. Because the we is purely illusory. In fact, belief in free will is what is preventing us from seeing this illusion. Right?

 

[Kolibri]

Of course, the Bible readily indicates that (free or not) God meddles with humanity's will when it suits His Divine Agenda®:

I have to study this further as to why the difference. But I've also read these scriptures as:

"Jehovah allowed Phar'aoh's heart to become obstinate, and he did not listen to them, just as Jehovah had told them." - Ex 9:12

"That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie," - 2 Thess 2:11

 

[Kolibri]

You're not addressing the questions I asked in the OP of this thread. I'm asking a philosophical question, not a biblical one.

okay. Sorry, I didn't catch that.

 

[Gambit]

I think the problem here is between our free will and destiny.

We are not free to do whatever we please. But God is. So, why are you saying that we have been endowed with free will by our creator? We haven't. This is clearly a lie.

 

[Gambit]

Like .. create the universe?

Because if God was not obliged to create the universe, then it seems that creationists are obliged to accept at least a 50:50 coin flip on the universe existing as opposed to it not existing. Aren't we lucky to be here if this is indeed the case?

So much for lamely accusing naturalists of having nothing but blind faith in chance.

...

And if God was obliged to create the universe ... what does that say about allegations of his omnipotence?

Perhaps he's simultaneously all-powerful but unable to resist the urge to create? Perhaps a god isn't a god unless creation is involved? Ever heard of a god that created nothing? Perhaps if you're truly perfect, there's no need to create anything? Who knows?

You're ranting.

Why are you saying that God was obliged to create? Who is forcing God to create? If God creates because he wants to create, then he is exercising his free will.

 

[NulliuSINverba]

I have to study this further as to why the difference. But I've also read these scriptures as:

"Jehovah allowed Phar'aoh's heart to become obstinate, and he did not listen to them, just as Jehovah had told them." - Ex 9:12

"That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie," - 2 Thess 2:11

What translation is that? I've searched online for both citations (verbatim) and there are no results. Is it the NRBS?

 

[George-ananda]

Then "we" are not co-creators of the script. Because the we is purely illusory.

Correct, ultimately there is no 'we'. When I used the term 'we' I was trying to relate our reality to the ultimate reality and I may have caused confusion.

In fact, belief in free will is what is preventing us from seeing this illusion. Right?

I don't think I'd put it that way. It is our mind creating the ego that keeps us in the illusion.

 

[NulliuSINverba]

You're ranting.

If you insist.

Why are you saying that God was obliged to create?

I'm not. However, some creationists on this very board have insisted that luck or chance played no role in the origins of our universe. How can this be if God has free will?

Who is forcing God to create?

I don't know. But if he opted to create rather than not create, we're sure lucky to be here ... aren't we?

If God creates because he wants to create, then he is exercising his free will.

I suppose that could be true. It follows that if he creates because he has no choice, then he isn't exercising free will.

 

[Sabour]

We are not free to do whatever we please. But God is. So, why are you saying that we have been endowed with free will by our creator? We haven't. This is clearly a lie.

Are you saying we don't get to choose what we want to do ?

 

[NulliuSINverba]

You're not addressing the questions I asked in the OP of this thread. I'm asking a philosophical question, not a biblical one.

You didn't make that clear in the OP. I apologize for citing scriptures.

If this is a purely philosophical exercise (something like "Is There Free Will?"), you'll need to explain why you've opted to include hypothetical gods in the discussion. You might also define this non-biblical god. Thanks.

 

[Kolibri]

What translation is that? I've searched online for both citations (verbatim) and there are no results. Is it the NRBS?

New World Translation (2013 Revision) Available at Read the Bible Online—Free Bible Downloads: MP3 Audio, PDF or via a free app that I use called JW Library.
I have not done the research yet as to why the change from cause to allow. When I do I'll start a convo if this thread remains strictly philosophical.

 

[Treks]

Is it still free will if you can't actually do something that is against natural law? I haven't seen any evidence yet that God can operate outside of these laws. Presumably if God really did have free will do whatever as He pleased, he could transcend the laws he created.

 

[Skwim]

I don't see the connection, as it is God that defines the standards of what is perfect.

Here's the logic.

You said "Since we were made in God's image, it would make logical sense that he too is a free moral agent, able to pick and choose."

So, you're saying that god's free moral agency necessarily derives from our being made in his image. But, because you say our conception necessarily determines one of god's characteristics, why wouldn't it determine any others? Lacking any reason to think otherwise, it should. And, in as much as one of our characteristics is sinfulness, god would necessarily be sinful himself.

 

[Skwim]

Yes, that's correct.



First and foremost, I am asking if God has free will. If God does whatever he pleases to do, then God has free will (as I defined it). So, let's address that point first.

Under your definition I agree, although it's hardly a notable observation.

I'm not advocating that we do have free will. So, I fail to see why you are asking me this question.

Because I figured that you, as an apparent Christian, would advocate freewill. If this isn't the case then so be it.