Does God have free will?

[bartdanr]

Hi Again,

I was wondering: if God knows everything that will happen in the future, then can s/he be said to have free will? For example, if God know s/he was going to smite me down with a stroke on June 25, 2012, then could God chose not to do so? If s/he could chose not to do so, then his/ers future knowledge was not true; but if s/he cannot chose not to do so, then how can s/he be considered free?

Keep in mind that if God has a perfect knowledge of the future, and s/he has always had this knowledge, then there never was a point when God "chose" to do something (or to not do something.) S/he just always knew what sh/e was destined to do.

Peace

 

[Aqualung]

I don't think that God does have a perfect knowledge of the future. I don't think God is omnicient in that sense. I don't think it's far-fetched to think that at any given time he knows all the possible choices people can make and all the possible consequences, but I don't think that he knows which ones people will choose. Of course, with that variable, he woudn't be able to know the future about what he would do, so he's not omnicient in that he will always what he will do at any given moment. He does have free will

 

[Linus]

I think I agree with Aqualung on this one. He has free will, but I don't think he chosses to know every little detail about the future. He could predict it perfectly if He wanted to. But If God KNEW everything about the future, he would know, when He created us, where we would end up after death. Kinda poinless, huh?

I spoke to my father about this very subject not too long ago. He put it this way:

God and the world could be compared to a child with a ball on a hill. He knows that the ball is eventually going to end up at the bottom of the hill. But he doesn't know every little bounce and every tiny turn the ball will take. He could walk along side the ball with, say, a stick and guide it, making sure it went exactly where he wanted it to. But He doesn't. He chooses to let us choose our own paths.

The important thing is this: God knows our hearts. He may or may not know that you are going to fall off of your bike at exactly 3:00 p.m on March 13th, 20015, but He is aware of what you are thinking right when you think it.

That's as best as I can describe it.

 

[Aqualung]

That's a pretty good description, and except for a few differences I agree. I don't think that he jsut "chooses" not to guide us. I think of it more like this. Teh bottom of the hill is the necessary ending place. If he guided us, though, the ball would only end up rolling half-way down the hill. He could guide if he chose, but if he were to choose that way, we wouldn't end up in the right place.

Did you mean 2015, because I don't think any of us will be riding our bikes at 20015

 

[Linus]

I don't think that he jsut "chooses" not to guide us. I think of it more like this. Teh bottom of the hill is the necessary ending place. If he guided us, though, the ball would only end up rolling half-way down the hill. He could guide if he chose, but if he were to choose that way, we wouldn't end up in the right place.

I don't think I'm following you here... Could you explain a little more?

Did you mean 2015, because I don't think any of us will be riding our bikes at 20015

Ha ha. Oops. Yeah 2015 is what i meant...

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Good Question
This needs to be put in a different perspective.
God is not restricted in any way and that includes time.
From his point of view, outside our time, he can see both the beginning and end of our time at the same time. he can edit as he pleases our time line and still see the beginning and perhaps a new end. Much as we can edit a cinefilm and make changes but still retain control and work to a changing script.
God may well have his own time line, or he may be completely out side of all time. Either option would be open to him.

Terry
________________________________-
Amen! Truly I say to you: Gather in my name. I am with you.

 

[bartdanr]

Good Question
This needs to be put in a different perspective.
God is not restricted in any way and that includes time.
From his point of view, outside our time, he can see both the beginning and end of our time at the same time. he can edit as he pleases our time line and still see the beginning and perhaps a new end. Much as we can edit a cinefilm and make changes but still retain control and work to a changing script.
God may well have his own time line, or he may be completely out side of all time. Either option would be open to him.

Terry
________________________________-
Amen! Truly I say to you: Gather in my name. I am with you.

Thanks for your post, Terry.

I've heard this theory before, and perhaps it's my own limited mind, but to me it doesn't make any sense. A state of "eternal now" is one of complete inaction as I perceive it. There is no decision followed by action, no action that is before another action--action requires time. What especially doesn't make sense to me is if this theory is accompanied with the idea that we also "sometime" will be "outside of time" with God, because by definition, we'd "already" be there.

Peace

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Thanks for your post, Terry.

I've heard this theory before, and perhaps it's my own limited mind, but to me it doesn't make any sense. A state of "eternal now" is one of complete inaction as I perceive it. There is no decision followed by action, no action that is before another action--action requires time. What especially doesn't make sense to me is if this theory is accompanied with the idea that we also "sometime" will be "outside of time" with God, because by definition, we'd "already" be there.

Peace

I did not state God was in a perminent state of now. Though that is how it may look from our time line. Think again of the film editor is he in a permanent state of now?

When we die we do indeed rerturn to God. Gods actions are not restricted by our time lines or our way of looking at things in any way.


Terry
________________________________
Blessed are the poor in spirit, the kingdom of heaven is theirs.

 

[michel]

That's a pretty good description, and except for a few differences I agree. I don't think that he jsut "chooses" not to guide us. I think of it more like this. Teh bottom of the hill is the necessary ending place. If he guided us, though, the ball would only end up rolling half-way down the hill. He could guide if he chose, but if he were to choose that way, we wouldn't end up in the right place.

Did you mean 2015, because I don't think any of us will be riding our bikes at 20015

I tend to agree, Aqualung; we have to find our own way up that hill; if God was to give some of us (or all of us) a detailed 'map', he would be short-circuiting the whole purpose of our own need to choose to find the right way to 'his house'. He did leave us a set of instructions though - the Bible!

 

[Shadow Wolf]

if God know s/he was going to smite me down with a stroke on June 25, 2012, then could God chose not to do so?

Why couldn't a God chose not to? I'm supposed to go to a college class today, but since its hideously boring, I might not go.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Why couldn't a God chose not to? I'm supposed to go to a college class today, but since its hideously boring, I might not go.

Think of God as the film editor in my entry above.
he can do as he choses to edit the script.

Terry
___________________________________
Blessed are the poor in spirit, the kingdom of heaven is theirs.

 

[bartdanr]

I did not state God was in a perminent state of now. Though that is how it may look from our time line. Think again of the film editor is he in a permanent state of now?

When we die we do indeed rerturn to God. Gods actions are not restricted by our time lines or our way of looking at things in any way.


Terry
________________________________
Blessed are the poor in spirit, the kingdom of heaven is theirs.

Hi Terry, thanks for the post.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I used the term that is often used to describe what you are describing (God having his/her own timeline or being completely outside of time).

The analogy of a film editor is also confusing to me. The film that is being edited also includes the edits that the editor will make, if God's foreknowledge is complete.

Does that make sense? A film editor is ignorant of the final decisions he or she will make until s/he makes those decisions--s/he is operating in a temporal framework. If God's foreknowledge includes a perfect knowledge of all things, and "all things" includes his/her own choices, then the analogy of film editor breaks down...the divine film editor cannot choose other than which s/he knows s/he will choose, or else divine foreknowledge is falsified.

Peace

 

[bartdanr]

Why couldn't a God chose not to? I'm supposed to go to a college class today, but since its hideously boring, I might not go.

Hi Luke, thanks for the post.

If God could somehow chose not to strike me down with a stroke, then it would mean that his "foreknowledge" was false. Unless God has foreknowledge of what could occur, but not necessarily what will occur, than God could have freedom of action. But if God has absolute foreknowledge of what will occur, the only way s/he can "change his/her mind" is to make that knowledge false--a logical impossibility.

Does this make sense?

Peace

 

[Anon]

If God smites people, then how come he doesn't send a hurricane after me, an Atheist in Massachusetts?

Instead he sent a hurricane down the bible belt.

That should tell everybody something about whether God is really involved in our lives.

 

[Aqualung]

I don't think I'm following you here... Could you explain a little more?

Well, it's like this.Our purpose here is to learn, grow, and progress as close to him as we, well essentially as far as we choose. How far we get has to be our own choice. If he were to steer us wherever he wanted, we woudn't have all those normal hardships, and we woudn't be able to learn from anything. With the falling of your bike, do you think you would become a very good bike rider if your dad held the back of it for you every single day? No. He has to let go, and that will usually mean you will fall down sometimes. But that's all part of learning how to ride.

 

[Aqualung]

Thanks for your post, Terry.

I've heard this theory before, and perhaps it's my own limited mind, but to me it doesn't make any sense. A state of "eternal now" is one of complete inaction as I perceive it. There is no decision followed by action, no action that is before another action--action requires time. What especially doesn't make sense to me is if this theory is accompanied with the idea that we also "sometime" will be "outside of time" with God, because by definition, we'd "already" be there.

Peace

Yeah, I don't understand it either. I don't think God can do all that. I think, due to the fact that he gave us free will, that he can't know what our end is. He knows what he wants it to be, and he knows what it can be based in all the different descicions we can make, but he doesn't which we will choose.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Hi Terry, thanks for the post.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I used the term that is often used to describe what you are describing (God having his/her own timeline or being completely outside of time).

The analogy of a film editor is also confusing to me. The film that is being edited also includes the edits that the editor will make, if God's foreknowledge is complete.

Does that make sense? A film editor is ignorant of the final decisions he or she will make until s/he makes those decisions--s/he is operating in a temporal framework. If God's foreknowledge includes a perfect knowledge of all things, and "all things" includes his/her own choices, then the analogy of film editor breaks down...the divine film editor cannot choose other than which s/he knows s/he will choose, or else divine foreknowledge is falsified.

Peace

I admit I am having trouble seeing where you visualization problem lies.
I have not used the word foreknowledge.
God can see the entire Time line. But the time line is not fixed he can change it. To us he may be seen as changing the future to himself he is only editing the time line.
We are totally unable to look into the future, so we seem to be on a path through time events of which we can change through our free will.
God can look at any part of our time line as he is not part of it or subject to it.

God and us have different perceptions.

Terry
_______________________________
Blessed are the poor in spirit, the kingdom of heaven is theirs.

 

[Aqualung]

If God smites people, then how come he doesn't send a hurricane after me, an Atheist in Massachusetts?

Instead he sent a hurricane down the bible belt.

That should tell everybody something about whether God is really involved in our lives.

Hurricanes aren't there to smite people. Sure, he could stop it, but people need harship. If you went down and lived in the Bible belt, you would get "smote" too. Hurricanes aren't punishments. They're ecological disasters which God allows to happen because to interfere too much would be more disasterous in the long run.

 

[Aqualung]

I tend to agree, Aqualung; we have to find our own way up that hill; if God was to give some of us (or all of us) a detailed 'map', he would be short-circuiting the whole purpose of our own need to choose to find the right way to 'his house'. He did leave us a set of instructions though - the Bible!

good way of putting it, michel.

Think of God as the film editor in my entry above.
he can do as he choses to edit the script.

I don't think that's true, because we have free will. he can send a bunch of things your way, but ultimately, he can't change you. He can just try to persuade you to change. You are ultimately in control of the time line

 

[Anon]

to interfere too much would be more disasterous in the long run.

How would diverting the hurricane be disasterous? This is the guy who supposedly created the earth in 6 days. Why can't he divert a hurricane without allowing any disasterous consequences?