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Does God Hide From Us -- Or Do We Hide God From Us?

SalixIncendium

अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
Staff member
Premium Member
From a non-dual perspective, both propositions are the same.

That said, I am of the opinion based purely on subjective experience that I (the Self) decide what I am ready to see through choice and understanding.

To elaborate, I can make a choice all day long to have a sense of "oneness." Just because I choose to doesn't mean I am able to. I've even tried to force it in a state of mindfulness and have been less than successful. As I see it, there is a requisite to understand this choice, and this choice while it may be made consciously (in my experience it wasn't), must [also] be a choice of my higher level of Self. Even with choice, be it conscious or on a higher level, there must be an understanding of this choice by the Self to achieve "oneness."
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
One of the more curious things about our noble and esteemed species of spear-chucking, fur-challenged super-apes is that our normal, everyday waking consciousness divides the world into self and not-self.

When we see a tree, for instance, we not only see the tree, but we have a nearly unshakeable sense or feeling that the tree is not-us. When we have a conscious thought, we have a similar nearly unshakeable sense or feeling that the thought is us -- or at least a part of us.

Now, in some relatively rare instances, people experience an abrupt end to that self and not-self way of perceiving the world while yet their awareness or experiencing in some sense continues. And when that happens, self and not-self perceiving is replaced by a perception of "oneness". That is, a sense or feeling that all things are somehow, on some level, indiscreet and really just one thing. This is sometimes called, "the mystical experience".

Some people -- but not all -- who have had such an experience come away convinced that their experience was one of god. That is, an experience of -- among other things -- a sentient agent ("Agent" being something that has a will).

Let's make a leap here and suppose for a moment that these people are correct, and that the mystical experience really is an experience of god. What would that mean to the notion that god hides from us?

Wouldn't there now be a sense in which it could be said that "we hide god from us", as opposed to saying "god hides from us"?

After all, who here is responsible for dividing the world into self and not-self -- and thus obscuring "the oneness of all things" -- if not our own consciousness?

Your carefully considered thoughts, comments, observations, and mouth-frothing rants are welcome!

Some try to define/regulate God; which creates a separation between the Absolute and self. You can't profit from what you can't control.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Right out of the starting gate, @Sunstone I rated your post as funny because it really did strike me as more than slightly ironic. Then again, almost everything does. *bursts into laughter*

Where to begin?
Now, in some relatively rare instances, people experience an abrupt end to that self and not-self way of perceiving the world while yet their awareness or experiencing in some sense continues. And when that happens, self and not-self perceiving is replaced by a perception of "oneness". That is, a sense or feeling that all things are somehow, on some level, indiscreet and really just one thing. This is sometimes called, "the mystical experience".

Some people -- but not all -- who have had such an experience come away convinced that their experience was one of god. That is, an experience of -- among other things -- a sentient agent ("Agent" being something that has a will).
The key here is "come away from" and so is necessarily within the domain of critical analysis. This is where the normal conscious mind tries to compartmentalize the experience in neat terms that fit understanding. The simple fact is, having been through this numerous times, that the individual does not know what they have experienced but the conscious mind has to come up with something and more often than not, because the experience is so divorced from normal experiences they determine that it is from some kind of god.

Let's make a leap here and suppose for a moment that these people are correct, and that the mystical experience really is an experience of god. What would that mean to the notion that god hides from us?
In those terms, but in those terms only, there would be some truth to the assumption. But... and it's a rather large but, it is just an assumption the conscious mind superimposes on the experience.

Wouldn't there now be a sense in which it could be said that "we hide god from us", as opposed to saying "god hides from us"?
Again, in those terms, for sure, but again, only in those limited terms. Reality, quite fortunately, isn't quite so binary. In larger terms, the conscious self has simply created a fantasy that papers over what they are grappling to understand in order to understand. It's akin to shooting oneself in the toe, really. I will admit, that due to the incredible nature of the experience, one cannot easily understand it and so the leap to some kind of deity is fairly common, natural and not unexpected. It's all part of the cognitive process. With luck, that process with not stop there however.

After all, who here is responsible for dividing the world into self and not-self -- and thus obscuring "the oneness of all things" -- if not our own consciousness?
While this is true, presented in this way, one comes to understand that "the oneness of all things" is itself an illusion, a stepping stone, as it were to an even greater understanding. To understand a greater picture of reality, one does need to go through this phase. On that, I will agree.

Your carefully considered thoughts, comments, observations, and mouth-frothing rants are welcome!
Oh well, just smack me if my drool is getting on the carpet. I have broad shoulders. :)
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The key here is "come away from" and so is necessarily within the domain of critical analysis. This is where the normal conscious mind tries to compartmentalize the experience in neat terms that fit understanding. The simple fact is, having been through this numerous times, that the individual does not know what they have experienced but the conscious mind has to come up with something and more often than not, because the experience is so divorced from normal experiences they determine that it is from some kind of god.
I wouldn't conclude that is the default go-to. I'll explain in a second...

In those terms, but in those terms only, there would be some truth to the assumption. But... and it's a rather large but, it is just an assumption the conscious mind superimposes on the experience.
You could call it an assumption, but rather it's more modeling. When we have an experience beyond the norm, we try to fit it into something we can relate it to - such as a deity figure from our culture's symbol set of the transcendent. What is known is the experience was transcendent, and so if the primary language available to them is that of the gods, and they for the most part "believe" in them conceptually, that they are part of the framework of reality for them as they look at the world as a whole, that will be what comes to mind to 'explain' the experience, or to call it that, to represent it as an encounter with the divine.

If however someone's primary language, or mode of translation of the world of experience is more modernistic, and they have some transcendent experience, they may hang it on some other symbol, such as the "scientific explanation", i.e., "I had an hallucination." Or in a more postmodern fashion, "I had a peak experience of a transpersonal nature". The default go-to is not necessarily "God", if one does not filter reality through such frameworks of mythic and archetypal forms.

There is something to be said however for someone at the higher modes of perception (worldviews) to utilize the forms from the earlier ones, as they are after all deeply engrained in our psyches evolutionarily speaking. The world of magic, the subtle realm, was very much a part of the fantasies of our youth and subsequently is in fact a language we already to understand, and can take advantage of in powerful ways, without it being a regression into actual magical thinking as the norm, throwing out the gains of rational and critical thought.

In larger terms, the conscious self has simply created a fantasy that papers over what they are grappling to understand in order to understand.
Well, the exact same thing can be said of our sciences as well! :) In reality, the world is to us what lenses we choose to filter it through. It may be more powerful and predictive, but it is still a highly selective set of thoughts and ideas trying to fit a preconceived fantasy of our minds, ignoring what doesn't fit, that for instance we can truly understand it by using the tools of reason and analytic thought. That's a fundamental flaw right there, and not really all that different from modeling it with gods. Instead of deities, we now have scientific "laws", and we elevate them as holding the promise of "truth" the same as we did in seeking deities.

Even though its more sophisticated, it's just a more sophisticated mythology. We do the same thing as someone who concludes they actually met Jesus in a transcendent experience.

It's akin to shooting oneself in the toe, really. I will admit, that due to the incredible nature of the experience, one cannot easily understand it and so the leap to some kind of deity is fairly common, natural and not unexpected. It's all part of the cognitive process. With luck, that process with not stop there however.
We leap to what is familiar to us, some language that we can relate our experience to. We all do that with every single experience, actually, whether it is transcendent or mundane. Our minds constantly fill in the blanks with knowns, which is why a lot of time we actually misread the thing. I read this that if someone had no reference whatsoever, or belief in say for instance an "angel". If they were to actually encounter a real one (hypothetically speaking), their minds would relate it to something they could recognize, and they would make it an "old woman" or something.

That angel would be believed in and experienced by them with a pre given known, "old woman". It is really only an "old woman" because that is what the person's adopted framework can allow it to be. We cannot leave it as an unknown, so we reconfigure it to fit our constructed reality we are operating within. All else gets filtered out. The true nature of it of course is beyond what we perceive it to be.

While this is true, presented in this way, one comes to understand that "the oneness of all things" is itself an illusion, a stepping stone, as it were to an even greater understanding. To understand a greater picture of reality, one does need to go through this phase. On that, I will agree.
It's nice you point this out. Oneness is not the ultimate reality, but a damned good beginning. :)
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Some people -- but not all -- who have had such an experience come away convinced that their experience was one of god. That is, an experience of -- among other things -- a sentient agent ("Agent" being something that has a will).

Let's make a leap here and suppose for a moment that these people are correct, and that the mystical experience really is an experience of god. What would that mean to the notion that god hides from us?
Sorry - I see no reason to make this leap.

... at least not until there's any more reason to think that "mystical experiences" are experiences of gods than there is to believe in any other sort of pareidolia.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
I wouldn't conclude that is the default go-to. I'll explain in a second...
Before the modern era, it was a default go-to position however..


You could call it an assumption, but rather it's more modeling. When we have an experience beyond the norm, we try to fit it into something we can relate it to - such as a deity figure from our culture's symbol set of the transcendent. What is known is the experience was transcendent, and so if the primary language available to them is that of the gods, and they for the most part "believe" in them conceptually, that they are part of the framework of reality for them as they look at the world as a whole, that will be what comes to mind to 'explain' the experience, or to call it that, to represent it as an encounter with the divine.

If however someone's primary language, or mode of translation of the world of experience is more modernistic, and they have some transcendent experience, they may hang it on some other symbol, such as the "scientific explanation", i.e., "I had an hallucination." Or in a more postmodern fashion, "I had a peak experience of a transpersonal nature". The default go-to is not necessarily "God", if one does not filter reality through such frameworks of mythic and archetypal forms.

There is something to be said however for someone at the higher modes of perception (worldviews) to utilize the forms from the earlier ones, as they are after all deeply engrained in our psyches evolutionarily speaking. The world of magic, the subtle realm, was very much a part of the fantasies of our youth and subsequently is in fact a language we already to understand, and can take advantage of in powerful ways, without it being a regression into actual magical thinking as the norm, throwing out the gains of rational and critical thought.
This is pretty much a given. Whatever root assumptions about reality the individual holds will colour their interpretation of said experiences.


Well, the exact same thing can be said of our sciences as well! :) In reality, the world is to us what lenses we choose to filter it through. It may be more powerful and predictive, but it is still a highly selective set of thoughts and ideas trying to fit a preconceived fantasy of our minds, ignoring what doesn't fit, that for instance we can truly understand it by using the tools of reason and analytic thought. That's a fundamental flaw right there, and not really all that different from modeling it with gods. Instead of deities, we now have scientific "laws", and we elevate them as holding the promise of "truth" the same as we did in seeking deities.
Science on the one hand tends to be progressive and self-correcting whereas more religious viewpoints tend to get quagmired in dogmatic certainties. Fixation on deity generally does not go beyond that deity due to the nature of deity itself. You're at the source, where else is there to go? So, it can be a very real dead end to further growth.

We leap to what is familiar to us, some language that we can relate our experience to. We all do that with every single experience, actually, whether it is transcendent or mundane. Our minds constantly fill in the blanks with knowns, which is why a lot of time we actually misread the thing. I read this that if someone had no reference whatsoever, or belief in say for instance an "angel". If they were to actually encounter a real one (hypothetically speaking), their minds would relate it to something they could recognize, and they would make it an "old woman" or something.
I do agree with this, it's how we apprehend reality. It is a hit and miss affair based on our understanding of how reality ought to behave.

That angel would be believed in and experienced by them with a pre given known, "old woman". It is really only an "old woman" because that is what the person's adopted framework can allow it to be. We cannot leave it as an unknown, so we reconfigure it to fit our constructed reality we are operating within. All else gets filtered out. The true nature of it of course is beyond what we perceive it to be
Which is more or less what I was getting at. We don't know therefore we grapple with explaining it to ourselves in ways that make sense to our understanding.

It's nice you point this out. Oneness is not the ultimate reality, but a damned good beginning. :)
Thanks. I look at it as the first necessary baby step down the rabbit hole of inner reality.
 
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YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Sorry - I see no reason to make this leap.

... at least not until there's any more reason to think that "mystical experiences" are experiences of gods than there is to believe in any other sort of pareidolia.
And after having many such experiences I tend to agree. The fact is that the observer doesn't really know what they are experiencing. You are too caught up in the giddy "ohhh ahhh" aspect while it is happening. It's only later that we superimpose our idea constructs onto the experience.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
You could call it an assumption, but rather it's more modeling. When we have an experience beyond the norm, we try to fit it into something we can relate it to - such as a deity figure from our culture's symbol set of the transcendent. What is known is the experience was transcendent, and so if the primary language available to them is that of the gods, and they for the most part "believe" in them conceptually, that they are part of the framework of reality for them as they look at the world as a whole, that will be what comes to mind to 'explain' the experience, or to call it that, to represent it as an encounter with the divine.

If however someone's primary language, or mode of translation of the world of experience is more modernistic, and they have some transcendent experience, they may hang it on some other symbol, such as the "scientific explanation", i.e., "I had an hallucination." Or in a more postmodern fashion, "I had a peak experience of a transpersonal nature". The default go-to is not necessarily "God", if one does not filter reality through such frameworks of mythic and archetypal forms.
IOW, the difference between "God" and a hallucination comes down to nothing more than personal inclination and cultural priming?
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
And after having many such experiences I tend to agree. The fact is that the observer doesn't really know what they are experiencing. You are too caught up in the giddy "ohhh ahhh" aspect while it is happening. It's only later that we superimpose our idea constructs onto the experience.
Thank you for doing such a good job of expressing how I see it.

I once read a long and detailed article about NDE. It included multiple case history/ descriptions. One of the things that most struck me was how people always experienced something that they sorta expected. Christians met Jesus, nontheists met loved ones, etc. Jews never met Jesus or anything like that.
Tom
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
One thing that hasn't been mentioned so far, and is an integral part of these experiences, is that there is a distinct perception of the expansion of awareness. It's literally like a ballon effect. As our friend @Windwalker pointed out, this papering over of the experience should, ideally, promote growth, intellectually and though I dislike the term, spiritually too. With each subsequent dip into the well of being, one grows from the experience and the intellectual cognition of the event, um, errr, matures. To carry on the analogy, the wallpaper gets better and is more artfully applied, eventually developing into an accent that lets the surface show through in an artistic balance of contrasts. It's hard to put into words, LOL.
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
One of the more curious things about our noble and esteemed species of spear-chucking, fur-challenged super-apes is that our normal, everyday waking consciousness divides the world into self and not-self.

When we see a tree, for instance, we not only see the tree, but we have a nearly unshakeable sense or feeling that the tree is not-us. When we have a conscious thought, we have a similar nearly unshakeable sense or feeling that the thought is us -- or at least a part of us.

Now, in some relatively rare instances, people experience an abrupt end to that self and not-self way of perceiving the world while yet their awareness or experiencing in some sense continues. And when that happens, self and not-self perceiving is replaced by a perception of "oneness". That is, a sense or feeling that all things are somehow, on some level, indiscreet and really just one thing. This is sometimes called, "the mystical experience".

Some people -- but not all -- who have had such an experience come away convinced that their experience was one of god. That is, an experience of -- among other things -- a sentient agent ("Agent" being something that has a will).

Let's make a leap here and suppose for a moment that these people are correct, and that the mystical experience really is an experience of god. What would that mean to the notion that god hides from us?

Wouldn't there now be a sense in which it could be said that "we hide god from us", as opposed to saying "god hides from us"?

After all, who here is responsible for dividing the world into self and not-self -- and thus obscuring "the oneness of all things" -- if not our own consciousness?

Your carefully considered thoughts, comments, observations, and mouth-frothing rants are welcome!
Literacy is a funny dangerous thing. A painter painted the landscape, he then passed that on to their children. They then painted a painting of the painting of the landscape, and passed that on to their children. On and on it went till the their painting over time became the authority of the landscape. We never talk about darwin landscape painting. We argue about our own painting of darwin painting. Its interesting the various bias on darwin that surface, but no one seems to bother examining his painting directly, they mearly have their own painting of a painting of a painting. Darwin painted some truth but that is self evident, and is predated by others by 1000 years, while at the same time extreme confusion exists in his painting. Its not that I don't understand, its because I actually do understand it is why I see the confusion. So if the source painting of paintings of paintings of paintings confused then all paintings after that will tend to paint that confusion into their paintings. I know I haven't directly addressed the original question just the underlying processes that cause it. And I already know how I wrote this will appear to some. I could write it differently and be more clear, to them, but then the reader would be dictating this writing based on their confusion. I could do that, and some times do that, in sarcastic humour generally, but not always.
598px-Darwins_first_tree.jpg
 
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sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
One thing that hasn't been mentioned so far, and is an integral part of these experiences, is that there is a distinct perception of the expansion of awareness. It's literally like a ballon effect. As our friend @Windwalker pointed out, this papering over of the experience should, ideally, promote growth, intellectually and though I dislike the term, spiritually too. With each subsequent dip into the well of being, one grows from the experience and the intellectual cognition of the event, um, errr, matures. To carry on the analogy, the wallpaper gets better and is more artfully applied, eventually developing into an accent that lets the surface show through in an artistic balance of contrasts. It's hard to put into words, LOL.
It's what happened to the elves after they saw Aman (if you know the lore). You see possibilities and connections that were invisible before and the creative, truth seeking and empathic instincts flower more and more. Though which abilities grow depend on the character of the person and the society and times one is in.
One is also inclined to bump into walls and lampposts more often :p.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
It's what happened to the elves after they saw Aman (if you know the lore). You see possibilities and connections that were invisible before and the creative, truth seeking and empathic instincts flower more and more. Though which abilities grow depend on the character of the person and the society and times one is in.
One is also inclined to bump into walls and lampposts more often :p.
Indeed and yes, I've bumped into my fair share of walls, lampposts, trees and small animals. :oops:
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Sorry - I see no reason to make this leap.

... at least not until there's any more reason to think that "mystical experiences" are experiences of gods than there is to believe in any other sort of pareidolia.

Shocking of me to suggest assuming something for the sake of discussion! I know!
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I always thought you were an agnostic... Never thought I would see that coming from you... Perhaps the spirit moved you... good job! :)

I'm an agnostic apatheist. Why would you think I wasn't? Are you sure you've read the OP with comprehension?
 

Kapalika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Let's make a leap here and suppose for a moment that these people are correct, and that the mystical experience really is an experience of god. What would that mean to the notion that god hides from us?

This is a good question! I actually feel that neither is hiding. We are limited beings that are trapped in ignorance. Many in Hinduism call this maya but as a follower of Trika I don't hold that our world is illusion, just that our perception of it is.

I feel the reason is that dualism is somewhat necessary for this world to arise ( I have a metaphysical model that addresses this). It's underlying nature is nondual although it manifests as duel. Liberation from ignorance is to see the world for what it really is.

Some more Vedic types might say this is a cosmic dance of sorts, or that we fall into maya because of the cycles of the ages. I don't know if that is true or not but what I can say is that it's simply the fact that we are spear chucking, fur challenged apes that makes us unable to see "god" normally.

The universe doesn't revolve around us, and we evolved to make sense of the world in the way that offered the best increments of survival. Such a thing would value seeing things discretely rather than truly how they are. That sense of self is necessary at least in the path we approached it in evolution, for the propagation of genes.

We often have false perceptions... optical illusions, faulty memory... I don't see why being unable by default to perceive things in a nondual way would be any different.

edit: grammar
 
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