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does God like patriotism?
- Thread starter Eddi
- Start date
According to Dante, the traitors to the Fatherland are stuck in a icy lake, in the deepest recess of Inferno.
Honestly, I think that the Bible is filled with anecdotes that indicate that we should all be loyal to our own fatherlands.
Honestly, I think that the Bible is filled with anecdotes that indicate that we should all be loyal to our own fatherlands.
Pete in Panama
Well-Known Member
Whoa, sounds like u got God in a pretty tight little box there! For me knowing what God's thinking is WAY above my pay grade and I'm stretching it to just know what is and what's better than what else.
What I got so far is that a strong humanity is good, and it's made up of families, which make up communities, which make up regions, which make up countries, and all the countries in the world make up humanity as a whole. Strong families that are loved and respected make strong communities. Likewise communities to countries to nations to humanity.
What I'm saying is we can't make humanity better by making nations worse off. We need to love and respect nations. Some folks call that "patriotism" but I don't want to fuss the definitions.
What I got so far is that a strong humanity is good, and it's made up of families, which make up communities, which make up regions, which make up countries, and all the countries in the world make up humanity as a whole. Strong families that are loved and respected make strong communities. Likewise communities to countries to nations to humanity.
What I'm saying is we can't make humanity better by making nations worse off. We need to love and respect nations. Some folks call that "patriotism" but I don't want to fuss the definitions.
From a Christian perspective, God sent Jesus to redeem the whole entire world
Not any one nation
Which would suggest that he thinks of the world in terms of individuals, not in terms of nations
Which would mean that he doesn't much care for tribalism
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
If anything, it's idolatrous.
And how has that worked out?
From a Jewish perspective (at least, from the perspective of this particular Jew), I'm not sure that the word "nation" as used in the Tanakh (what you would call the Old Testament) means quite the same thing as how the word "nation" is generally used today. I may be wrong, as there are multiple nuances that can be applied to many biblical words.
I would like to mention that there is the passage from Genesis 17:4, in which God tells Avraham Avinu: "As for Me, behold My covenant is with you, and you shall become the father of a multitude of nations." The Hebrew word "goyim" (גוים) from that passage is usually translated as "nations," but it can also mean "people." As a bit of an off-topic side note, I think this shows that a common accusation against Jews of generally using the word "goyim" in a pejorative sense for non-Jews is inaccurate.
Pete in Panama
Well-Known Member
Sounds like you're saying that grouping in nations is tribalism, and since virtually every single human on the planet resides in one nation or another then does that make humans "bad"? I think not. When I read Genesis 1:27--
So God created man in His own image;
in the image of God He created him;
male and female He created them.
in the image of God He created him;
male and female He created them.
--my take is that God is good, man is good. I realize that there are many who hold humanity in contempt but there's another quote--
"To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture." ― Thomas Paine,
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
It doesn't depend on anyone's opinion, it is the way the universe manifests. Most of what you see happening is the way karma works, cause and effect, reaping what you sow, etc.. However in terms of what God expects of human behavior in the context of your national government, one should obey all the laws of Caesar, ie. your government, if that implies patriotism, so be it.I don't think he does
I think he considers it primitive and divisive
And a distraction from more important things
I'd actually go so far as to say that he disapproves of it
Given what we know about him
That's what I think anyway
Misunderstood
Active Member
I think he is not in favor of a formal government. There are a few places in the Bible to support that I feel. I will post 1 Samuel 8 below.
Samuel 8:
1-2 Samuel had two sons. The older one was Joel, and the younger one was Abijah. When Samuel was getting old, he let them be leaders at Beersheba. 3 But they were not like their father. They were dishonest and accepted bribes to give unfair decisions.
4 One day the nation's leaders came to Samuel at Ramah 5 and said, “You are an old man. You set a good example for your sons, but they haven't followed it. Now we want a king to be our leader, just like all the other nations. Choose one for us!”
6 Samuel was upset to hear the leaders say they wanted a king, so he prayed about it. 7 The Lord answered:
Samuel, do everything they want you to do. I am really the one they have rejected as their king. 8 Ever since the day I rescued my people from Egypt, they have turned from me to worship idols. Now they are turning away from you. 9 Do everything they ask, but warn them and tell them how a king will treat them.
10 Samuel told the people who were asking for a king what the Lord had said:
11 If you have a king, this is how he will treat you. He will force your sons to join his army. Some of them will ride in his chariots, some will serve in the cavalry, and others will run ahead of his own chariot.a]">[a] 12 Some of them will be officers in charge of 1,000 soldiers, and others will be in charge of 50. Still others will have to farm the king's land and harvest his crops, or make weapons and parts for his chariots. 13 Your daughters will have to make perfume or do his cooking and baking.
14 The king will take your best fields, as well as your vineyards, and olive orchards and give them to his own officials. 15 He will also take a tenth of your grain and grapes and give it to his officers and officials.
16 The king will take your slaves and your best young men and your donkeys and make them do his work. 17 He will also take a tenth of your sheep and goats. You will become the king's slaves, 18 and you will finally cry out for the Lord to save you from the king you wanted. But the Lord won't answer your prayers.
19-20 The people would not listen to Samuel. “No!” they said. “We want to be like other nations. We want a king to rule us and lead us in battle.”
21 Samuel listened to them and then told the Lord exactly what they had said. 22 “Do what they want,” the Lord answered. “Give them a king.”
Samuel told the people to go back to their homes.
Samuel 8:
1-2 Samuel had two sons. The older one was Joel, and the younger one was Abijah. When Samuel was getting old, he let them be leaders at Beersheba. 3 But they were not like their father. They were dishonest and accepted bribes to give unfair decisions.
4 One day the nation's leaders came to Samuel at Ramah 5 and said, “You are an old man. You set a good example for your sons, but they haven't followed it. Now we want a king to be our leader, just like all the other nations. Choose one for us!”
6 Samuel was upset to hear the leaders say they wanted a king, so he prayed about it. 7 The Lord answered:
Samuel, do everything they want you to do. I am really the one they have rejected as their king. 8 Ever since the day I rescued my people from Egypt, they have turned from me to worship idols. Now they are turning away from you. 9 Do everything they ask, but warn them and tell them how a king will treat them.
10 Samuel told the people who were asking for a king what the Lord had said:
11 If you have a king, this is how he will treat you. He will force your sons to join his army. Some of them will ride in his chariots, some will serve in the cavalry, and others will run ahead of his own chariot.a]">[a] 12 Some of them will be officers in charge of 1,000 soldiers, and others will be in charge of 50. Still others will have to farm the king's land and harvest his crops, or make weapons and parts for his chariots. 13 Your daughters will have to make perfume or do his cooking and baking.
14 The king will take your best fields, as well as your vineyards, and olive orchards and give them to his own officials. 15 He will also take a tenth of your grain and grapes and give it to his officers and officials.
16 The king will take your slaves and your best young men and your donkeys and make them do his work. 17 He will also take a tenth of your sheep and goats. You will become the king's slaves, 18 and you will finally cry out for the Lord to save you from the king you wanted. But the Lord won't answer your prayers.
19-20 The people would not listen to Samuel. “No!” they said. “We want to be like other nations. We want a king to rule us and lead us in battle.”
21 Samuel listened to them and then told the Lord exactly what they had said. 22 “Do what they want,” the Lord answered. “Give them a king.”
Samuel told the people to go back to their homes.
I don't think He disapproves patriotism. Why should people not have right to love their own country and culture? It would mean all cultural things and differences would be erased and I think it would be very bleak world then.
But, isn't it more divisive to be anti patriotic, deny right for people to love their own country and force them all into collective oligarchy?