Does God really exist? I want to know your views.

[PruePhillip]

Roger Penrose likes to differ. Conformal cyclic cosmology - Wikipedia

I don't care if the universe was formed from the body of slain Ymir, shat out by a raven or sneezed out but the Great Arkleseizure.

With plants created before the sun, yeah, totally not made up. It's exactly what I mean. It doesn't stop at the creation of the universe but goes on and on and on. It's a story, not a hypothesis. (And it is so different from what we really know that it has to be made up.)

How it's written you would think the sun was created three times - it's just repeating
the earliest event when God said "Let there be light." It's written odd - we don't know
what some terms are - it was written in the Bronze Age.

 

[Heyo]

How it's written you would think the sun was created three times - it's just repeating
the earliest event when God said "Let there be light." It's written odd - we don't know
what some terms are - it was written in the Bronze Age.

I agree.
It was written in the Bronze Age by Bronze Age people with a Bronze Age understanding of the world. Other cultures of the time had more or less similar myths. Most of them describe some form of creation, a beginning of the earth (which was their understanding of the universe).
They didn't have a distinction of "within the universe" and "without the universe" as we do today. that was a later ret-con as, at closer inspection, gods couldn't be found within the universe. Another ret-con was that some religion went from polytheistic to henotheistic and then monotheistic.
Seeing the diversity of the myths and their development makes it clear that they were never intended as serious scientific explanations but as stories.

 

[PruePhillip]

I agree.
It was written in the Bronze Age by Bronze Age people with a Bronze Age understanding of the world. Other cultures of the time had more or less similar myths. Most of them describe some form of creation, a beginning of the earth (which was their understanding of the universe).
They didn't have a distinction of "within the universe" and "without the universe" as we do today. that was a later ret-con as, at closer inspection, gods couldn't be found within the universe. Another ret-con was that some religion went from polytheistic to henotheistic and then monotheistic.
Seeing the diversity of the myths and their development makes it clear that they were never intended as serious scientific explanations but as stories.

Okay, on that first symbolic "day" the earth is shrouded in darkness, the sky is a dark orange,
the sterile ocean is a dark green. No land in sight - the continents have yet to rise. This is the
view of science, it's also the view of Genesis.
Genesis says the land rose from the ocean - as it happened.
Genesis says that life emerged on land. That's now the consensus as land provides wetting
and drying cycles to accumulate organics.
And then life emerged from the seas.

Tell me how Genesis knew this.

 

[Heyo]

Okay, on that first symbolic "day" the earth is shrouded in darkness, the sky is a dark orange,
the sterile ocean is a dark green. No land in sight - the continents have yet to rise. This is the
view of science, it's also the view of Genesis.
Genesis says the land rose from the ocean - as it happened.
Genesis says that life emerged on land. That's now the consensus as land provides wetting
and drying cycles to accumulate organics.
And then life emerged from the seas.

Tell me how Genesis knew this.

I don't know if it is your lack of knowledge about science or my lack of knowledge about Genesis but I see no resemblance between science and Genesis. I think we should compare notes.
Let's start at the beginning, or a bit after the beginning at t=10⁻⁴³ seconds.
(Science doesn't make definitive statements about anything before that. We can only speculate.)
The universe has a radius of 10⁻³⁵ meters. It already contains all the mass and energy, it is extremely hot and rapidly expanding.
What is the equivalent text in Genesis describing that state?

 

[PruePhillip]

I don't know if it is your lack of knowledge about science or my lack of knowledge about Genesis but I see no resemblance between science and Genesis. I think we should compare notes.
Let's start at the beginning, or a bit after the beginning at t=10⁻⁴³ seconds.
(Science doesn't make definitive statements about anything before that. We can only speculate.)
The universe has a radius of 10⁻³⁵ meters. It already contains all the mass and energy, it is extremely hot and rapidly expanding.
What is the equivalent text in Genesis describing that state?

First verse, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
In that order, BTW.

Look, the bible is a theological book. It doesn't mention dinosaurs, or the snowball earth,
or the fusing of hydrogen in stars etc.. It gives us enough to acknowledge God as creator.
Let me repeat - the universe cannot create itself when it didn't exist. That's magic fairy dust
stuff.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Does God really exist?

It's a difficult question and I understand why people want or desire to have something bigger than themselves for so many reasons.

My personal assessment is I don't see how a God could physically exist given the sheer fact that no god has ever presented themselves in any type of manner that would be convincing enough to even entertain the idea.

But I do think God exists within a person's imagination and persona. We do after all have that wonderful ability to converse with ourselves and who's to say it's wrong to have a god as your personal avatar?

I just don't think God is a public entity or is applicable to any community. I see it as being a very personal and intimate thing which could arguably be considered your lifelong companion, but cannot be somebody else's.

 

[Heyo]

First verse, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
In that order, BTW.

Look, the bible is a theological book. It doesn't mention dinosaurs, or the snowball earth,
or the fusing of hydrogen in stars etc.. It gives us enough to acknowledge God as creator.
Let me repeat - the universe cannot create itself when it didn't exist. That's magic fairy dust
stuff.

I think we can come to an agreement on that basis.
We can part Genesis and the scientific cosmogony into two phases:
1. before t=10⁻⁴³ seconds (the creation part) and
2. after t=10⁻⁴³ seconds (the development part)

For part 2 we can say that bible and science disagree and that the bible must be wrong when the laws of nature are what we think they are. But that doesn't touch the creation part.

For part 1, science is out. Scientists come up with scientific ideas but there is nothing conclusive. It is more a question for philosophers. And here comes the philosophical nature of religion with the cosmological argument.
"Everything that exists has a cause." etc.
That is a valid argument. We can discuss it philosophically.

 

[PruePhillip]

I think we can come to an agreement on that basis.
We can part Genesis and the scientific cosmogony into two phases:
1. before t=10⁻⁴³ seconds (the creation part) and
2. after t=10⁻⁴³ seconds (the development part)

For part 2 we can say that bible and science disagree and that the bible must be wrong when the laws of nature are what we think they are. But that doesn't touch the creation part.

For part 1, science is out. Scientists come up with scientific ideas but there is nothing conclusive. It is more a question for philosophers. And here comes the philosophical nature of religion with the cosmological argument.
"Everything that exists has a cause." etc.
That is a valid argument. We can discuss it philosophically.

The bible isn't about ten to the minus 45. If Genesis gave an account of the Big Bang or
some other mechanism then we could talk about it - but as far as the bible is concerned,
if it isn't mentioned then it isn't important to its readership.
But even ten to the minus 45 is still in realm of physics, of some sort. It's minus one second
that metaphysical.

 

[Heyo]

The bible isn't about ten to the minus 45. If Genesis gave an account of the Big Bang or
some other mechanism then we could talk about it - but as far as the bible is concerned,
if it isn't mentioned then it isn't important to its readership.
But even ten to the minus 45 is still in realm of physics, of some sort. It's minus one second
that metaphysical.

I don't understand. Do you say that the bible (and the Christian god(s)) isn't about the creation of the universe?

 

[Aupmanyav]

what some terms are - it was written in the Bronze Age.

May be bronze age or dark age books but we believe every word of them and are ready to fight for them. Strange world.

 

[PruePhillip]

May be bronze age or dark age books but we believe every word of them and are ready to fight for them. Strange world.

We don't have to "fight" for obscure words with the Gospels. We are shown what EXAMPLE is pleasing
to God.

 

[PruePhillip]

I don't understand. Do you say that the bible (and the Christian god(s)) isn't about the creation of the universe?

No, it's more about WHAT HAPPENS ON EARTH after the universe is created.
And that' interesting - the ancient world had no real idea of what the universe
even was. And the bible is about going to heaven, not how the heavens go.

 

[Heyo]

No, it's more about WHAT HAPPENS ON EARTH after the universe is created.
And that' interesting - the ancient world had no real idea of what the universe
even was. And the bible is about going to heaven, not how the heavens go.

I'm glad we agree. That is what I was saying all along. The bible has very little to say about the creation event.
But that was the question that started our conversation.

So how did the universe created itself before it existed? Physics come with the universe,
but there was no physics before. Yet some amazing things clearly happened to cause
that first event.

We were talking about what came before the Big Bang. The bible doesn't say much about that. You're on your own.

 

[Aupmanyav]

We don't have to "fight" for obscure words with the Gospels. We are shown what EXAMPLE is pleasing to God.

That is the ploy, trick, bluff, hoax, artifice, strategy, subterfuge. These are rules of a peaceful society and people claim them to be from their God. That is plagiarism. That is 'dharma', duty, which belongs to all humanity and not to a God advocated by a megalomaniac or snake-oil seller.

And the bible is about going to heaven, not how the heavens go.

Good heavens! Do you have any verifiable evidence of any of these things - God, Satan, soul, prophets, son, heaven, hell, judgment; other than a mention in a 2000 year old book? You forget that you are in Science and Religion forum.

 

[PruePhillip]

That is the ploy, trick, bluff, hoax, artifice, strategy, subterfuge. These are rules of a peaceful society and people claim them to be from their God. That is plagiarism. That is 'dharma', duty, which belongs to all humanity and not to a God advocated by a megalomaniac or snake-oil seller.Good heavens! Do you have any verifiable evidence of any of these things - God, Satan, soul, prophets, son, heaven, hell, judgment; other than a mention in a 2000 year old book? You forget that you are in Science and Religion forum.

Science cannot answer two critical questions - not now, not ever
1 - why we are here?
2 - how did it all begin?

In the Gospels there aren't "rules" to govern your life. And the Gospels were
not sent to make a better society. You love the One who gave His life for you,
and in loving Him you seek to show His life in yourself through the indwelling
of His spirit. Proof? If you don't find the personal proof of that in your life then
you simply don't understand. And many religious people - drowning in rules
and regulations, don't understand.

 

[tayla]

Does God really exist?

Depends on the definition of the word. The word G-O-D certainly exists. That people have in their minds various ideas of a God; these exist as ideas.

 

[Piculet]

I wouldn't bother to try to find out if god(s) exist before you know what god is.

It ought to go the other way around. Otherwise you'll be left deciding what God is and looking for that, after which there may still be a different God, just not the kind you thought He was.