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Does God require a creator?

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
We don't know it's rubbish, because we don't know whether it makes sense to say that there are other universes..
It's rubbish for precisely that reason "we don't know"..

..but some claim we do, and that "before the big-bang" is not meaningful.
That is just extrapolating, and claiming that time as we measure it is absolute .. when it isn't.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
It's rubbish for precisely that reason "we don't know"..

Then I guess you feel that claiming that God had something to do with the Big Bang or anything else is also rubbish, because we don't know that either.


..but some claim we do, and that "before the big-bang" is not meaningful.
That is just extrapolating, and claiming that time as we measure it is absolute .. when it isn't.

No, it's just one of several speculations about the Big Bang and nothing more. Look at it this way. Many believers are fine with the claim that their God is ineffable--not comprehensible in human terms. So I don't see why you have such a problem with a requirement of meaningfulness. Maybe there are things about the universe that we simply don't have a reasonable way of explaining.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Does God require a creator?.

If God does not require a creator, then does that logically imply that the universe does not either? Something can come out of nothing.

If one assumes that something can't come out of nothing, and this is a reasoning for their belief in God, then don't they have to question where God came from?

"God exists outside of time"
Time is relative... right? In the original Planet of the Apes (spoiler alert) them astronauts time traveled due to their speed and time's relativity, right? So, if time isn't concrete and static throughout the universe, I guess it's reasonable to assume a deity could be outside of time.

"God exists outside of existence." maybe?

I dunno
If there is no artificial distinction made between creator and created then neither requires the other.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member

So it makes your "argument" silly.

Why is it impossible that another universe was not created before or after our universe?

I didn't say it was "impossible".
I'm just saying that you are not offering any solutions here. Just kicking the ball down an infinite field of infinite regress. And you are using unfalsifiable, unsupportable entities to do so, of all things.

The time we measure is relative to our own universe.

The time we measure is PART of our universe.
It doesn't exist if the universe doesn't exist.

Einstein, and physics, disagrees.

I'll take the independently verifiable science over your theological faith based self-contradicting nonsense.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Then I guess you feel that claiming that God had something to do with the Big Bang or anything else is also rubbish, because we don't know that either.




No, it's just one of several speculations about the Big Bang and nothing more. Look at it this way. Many believers are fine with the claim that their God is ineffable--not comprehensible in human terms. So I don't see why you have such a problem with a requirement of meaningfulness. Maybe there are things about the universe that we simply don't have a reasonable way of explaining.
It's not a speculation.

Time is an inherent part of the space-time continuum, just like space is.
They are like 2 sides of the same coin, the coin being the universe.
Without the coin, the sides don't exist either.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
The time we measure is PART of our universe.
It doesn't exist if the universe doesn't exist.
Oh dear .. you seem to be blind to the fact that time as we measure it, is not absolute.
Therefore, we cannot make deductions about the nature of time, and its non-existence
outside of the universe.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Are you qualified to determine which is which? I saw your cited definitions, but do you understand them enough to point to and correctly identify examples of each? For example, of the intelligent design movement and evolution, are they both science, both pseudoscience, or do we have ne of each, and how do you decide those answers?
With so many scientists around, and so much information available from them, who need to be a scientist, to know what they know?
Since scientists do not even agree on what science is, nor even pseudoscience, one is free to pick either side.
In a case like that, one can chose the side that argues against you side. He can't lose. :D

Question. Do you agree with @ratiocinator here?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
With so many scientists around, and so much information available from them, who need to be a scientist, to know what they know?
You don't learn from scientists merely because they exist. You need to study the science to learn it.
Since scientists do not even agree on what science is, nor even pseudoscience, one is free to pick either side.
Scientists and the rest of the academic community are in consensus regarding what science and pseudoscience are. And yes, you are free hitch your wagon to their stars or to anybody else competing with them for your attention and allegiance, but that's not a good freedom. That's more like the freedom to drive off a mountain pass for lack of a guard rail.
Question. Do you agree with @ratiocinator here?
You first. Every sentence in that post of mine was a question for you that you didn't answer.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
You don't learn from scientists merely because they exist. You need to study the science to learn it.

Scientists and the rest of the academic community are in consensus regarding what science and pseudoscience are. And yes, you are free hitch your wagon to their stars or to anybody else competing with them for your attention and allegiance, but that's not a good freedom. That's more like the freedom to drive off a mountain pass for lack of a guard rail.

You first. Every sentence in that post of mine was a question for you that you didn't answer.
I answered your question(s).
Since you disagreed, then it's your obligation to show that what I have said is not true.
It's not possible to tell you the difference between two things which experts are saying are hard to tell apart... depending on who's doing it.

Recently, a trio of mainstream physicists accused hundreds, perhaps thousands, of other mainstream physicists of Not Doing Science in a very public forum. Their article, published in February’s Scientific American 2, targets the inflationary universe theory, which, during the past 35 years, has come to be what most physicists use to explain the origin (and present state) of the cosmos. By publishing in SciAm, these authors aren’t just asking the vicariously scientific public—you and I—to accept their theory as correct. They are asking us to decide what it means to Do Science.


Climate deniers are accused of practicing pseudoscience, as are intelligent design creationists, astrologers, UFOlogists, parapsychologists, practitioners of alternative medicine, and often anyone who strays far from the scientific mainstream. The boundary problem between science and pseudoscience, in fact, is notoriously fraught with definitional disagreements because the categories are too broad and fuzzy on the edges, and the term “pseudoscience” is subject to adjectival abuse against any claim one happens to dislike for any reason.

The problem is that many sciences are nonfalsifiable, such as string theory, the neuroscience surrounding consciousness, grand economic models and the extraterrestrial hypothesis. On the last, short of searching every planet around every star in every galaxy in the cosmos, can we ever say with certainty that E.T.s do not exist?


There are reasons this is happening.
A recent hot topic is the marked increase in scientific problems, as seen in the Oct. 19 issue of The Economist. The problems staring the scientific community in the face are considerable: shoddy scientific practices, results that cannot be replicated, rushing to publish, plagiarism and violations of the rules of scientific conduct. Clearly, many scientists engage in practices that are unethical, wrongful, mistaken and even abusive.
The problems have been exacerbated by money becoming such a huge factor in fields such as biotechnology, pharmaceuticals and genetics. When big money and awards are involved, the temptation to rush to publish or skimp on due diligence can become overpowering. In many cases, otherwise competent and moral scientists yield to fraudulent practices.

If scientists do agree on what is, and isn't science, in practice, then I think I might be able to give you the answer you are looking for.
 
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