Does God Want You to Suffer?

[LooseEnd]

check this article: Good Viruses

see,it could be same for the smallpox!
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Since you bring this virus example over and over, and since I fear the reason is that you have not understood my perfection theory, I wish to further discuss this.
If you go by it, the question would be, "Why did GOD, who is perfect create Bad Viruses? Or why didn't he create Viruses in such a way that they would only help humans not harm them? " When I ask that question, there are no other logical answers, examples of this world you can give me, so you have to go to the theory of "Bad happens in this world, for a greater good at the end(after life, next life or whatever)." But no non-believer really cares about your explanations when you go to that last place,because its based on beliefs not logic, and hello... I'm a non-believer.
​

 

[LooseEnd]

listen to an example:
the gravity rule says that earth will attract everything towards itself.
a baby crawls on the roof while his/her parents don't notice that.he/she falls down and.....splash...blood everywhere. Now who or what is bad? gravity? baby's parents? the baby?

I would like to discuss this because I think by far this is the cleverest example given by you.

Firstly,-------Off topic-------
The gravity rule does not say earth will attract everything towards itself. It says two masses will have an attraction such a way that the attraction is propotional to the multiplication of masses and inversly propotional to the squre of distance between masses. In other words, The attraction is two way.
----------------------------------------------

Secondly, Who is to bad???? Simply GOD is bad.

Why? Can give millions of reasons.

(1)Why did he create Gravity? I suggest he could have created a perfect phenomena called lavity. The rules of lavity are the same as gravity except it has one special quality. When two objects are moving toward each other lavity will introduce a force that pushes the relative motion to be zero, the force will be proportional to the distance in such a way when a collision occurs, the relative velocity would be very close to zero. Now of course that is crazy in the world we see, but GOD is perfect and almighty, he could have done it.

(2) Why didn't he introduce wings to humans so that the boy could fly?

(3) Why didn't he make the human body in an unbreakable way so that a fall would not hurt a little boy?
....
.....
I can go all day if you want. What you need to understand is, that there is absolutely no logical way, no example of this living world, that you can use to break this theory. you will eventually have to say "He do bad now for a greater good at the end", which is just what you believe with no proof, no logics no nothing.

 

[tomspug]

To live is to feel pain. To feel no pain is to not live.

I say this because both destruction and healing require pain, unless they are instantaneous. So if God is good, then I would argue that God DOES want us to suffer, if it is the kind of suffering that leads to healing.

 

[The Great Architect]

I don't really know what God wants for me. Most suffering is bad; but on rare occasions, it can show us how strong we really are (not often, but sometimes).

I don't know that God wants us to suffer, but some things might be necessary.

 

[Riverwolf]

Are you suggesting that Good or Bad does not exist when the GOD is concerned.?

Yes.

Since the Good and Bad only exists in human mind is it an illusion? Or is it real, something that governs this society?

Just because something "governs" societies doesn't mean it's "real." After all, human societies have always been governed by what our senses can perceive, which is only a tiny piece of what's actually there.

My simple theory is, if GOD is almighty(Knows everything,can do everything...etc) he is bad. Yes I simply use the word BAD as it means. No one has yet given me any logical answer to think otherwise.

Bad is too abstract and vague. Care to be more precise?

I see a contradiction here. So you are simply saying that there can be a reason for being bad, and if so its excusable. You are suggesting that GOD may have reasons for doing bad things(Forgive me for the word), until we know it we cannot say or judge whether he is good or bad??? This is same as my given answer "He has a deeper meaning, you cant understand this yet". Yet you yourself say that I will rarely find answers like this here.

So we should just say someone was bad for killing someone without stopping to notice that this person's death saved tens of thousands of lives?

I ask you: is a single life more valuable than thousands?

If I have understood you wrong I apologize.

Accepted. ^_^

I do not understand what you mean. Please explain this more.(subjective concepts vs. objective concepts....I'm blank.)

That which is objective is the same no matter what perspective is looking at it. (Grass is green, air has oxygen, etc.) But abstract concepts such as good and bad are subjective, meaning they are different for everybody. (Some think sexual discrimination is bad, others think it's good.)

Unless a person is a psychopath or has some severe mental disability, no one does "bad" for the sake of doing bad; they all think they're doing the right thing.

 

[Riverwolf]

If something/someone has the power and freedom to stop an action, and they choose not to, then, logically, they want that action to occur - or don't care about the action one way or the other. If a god, in fact, has the power and freedom to stop your suffering, and you suffer anyway, then, logically, god wants you to suffer - or possibly just doesn't care about your suffering one way or the other - in which case, this god certainly wouldn't love you either.

Why "want"? Maybe God has no choice.

 

[Riverwolf]

I see. So you believe God does not favor us over the salmon who gets eaten by the bear?

Why should he?

What have we done to earn such a favor?

 

[Riverwolf]

God did not create this world?

God has always existed.

God is all that exists.

Therefore all that exists has always existed (though not always in the form in which we understand them now.)

 

[blackout]

Ssssuuuuuuffffffaaaaaarrrrrr!!!!!!!


SSSSSsssssssSSSuuuuUUUufffFFFffarrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!




*think egor*
:sorry1: I just had to get that out of my system.
It's been too many days. *UV feels better already*

 

[LooseEnd]

....
So we should just say someone was bad for killing someone without stopping to notice that this person's death saved tens of thousands of lives?

...........

Ok, I got it, and I finally understood your logic. In the end you are saying, there's no good or bad since it's relative, We can not know why he does anything. In the end it may be for greater good. I thank you.

 

[Aquitaine]

"Quote:
the children who starved to death in povety that had no access to any Bible or any other "word of God", and therefore couldn't/were unable to grasp the idea that life is all just a big test? What about the people, who didn't make it - did they just die, skip the test and go straight to an afterlife?

he has a good plan for them,don't worry.This world in not the end!"

Where's your evidence to support those claims?

Also, if God has this "good plan" for the people who didn't survive to experience life, then why doesn't he just skip life as a whole, and provide everyone with this "good plan"? I don't get it, what's the point in having life if he's capable of just skipping it with thie "good plan" of his?

Also, to Riverwolf as well. You both believe that this world is like a "test" and that there's an afterlife etc etc.

But don't you think it's unwise to assume suffering is neccessary because you only believe there's an afterlife? What if you're wrong, what if there is no afterlife, then is that suffering all of a sudden unneccessary?

 

[Aquitaine]

Oh and just to clarify, in this topic when I use the word "suffering" I'm referring to things like Mother's having a miscarriage, getting a horrible disease, babies dying straight after birth etc etc. I'm not referring to simple "pain" because I do accept that some lesser forms of "pain" are neccessary. If we had no concept of pain, we'd have no concept of pleasure.

Just like if we lived in a world where unpleasant "cold" temperature wasn't existent, then we'd have no concept of pleasurable "warm" temperature either. In order to recognise pleasure, we need to experience it's opposite in order to establish the difference. However, when it comes to "suffering", diseases, mental illness, natural disasters, infant mortality etc - I see no reason why it would be usefull, since most of it's victims would die anyway or be mentally incapacitated, and therefore wouldn't have the opportunity to "learn" the "lesson".

 

[Riverwolf]

Ok, I got it, and I finally understood your logic. In the end you are saying, there's no good or bad since it's relative, We can not know why he does anything. In the end it may be for greater good. I thank you.

It can't be "greater good" because "good" is completely part of the human mind.

Besides, nothing in this world is done independently of God, "good" or "bad."

 

[other-side]

Why are we wasting our time, for you to explain something I already have heard thousands of times before. I was looking for a more logical answer. But thanks. My questions still stands for anyone with a different approach.

SO you just want a specific answer!logical? why don't you respect those who believe in existence of soul or afterlife.they have logical answers for that.I asked you
"do you believe in them?" and if no, I will give you logical answer.I just want to know how to approach the right steps.ok?:rainbow1:

But GOD is Bad, this I understand perfectly

OK!

Why did GOD, who is perfect create Bad Viruses? Or why didn't he create Viruses in such a way that they would only help humans not harm them? "

I will answer this in my logical assumptions that will show afterlife and soul exist.

The gravity rule does not say earth will attract everything towards itself. It says two masses will have an attraction such a way that the attraction is propotional to the multiplication of masses and inversly propotional to the squre of distance between masses. In other words, The attraction is two way.

yeah I know that just wanted to say it quickly.I have read enough when i was getting my civil engineering Bachelor degree.

the relative velocity would be very close to zero.

Are you joking? {F=m.delta(V)} so if the relative velocity would be near zero then perhaps we had no collision after that!! sounds awesome,perhaps we couldn't play baseball then hehe

but GOD is perfect and almighty, he could have done it.

yeah yeah God is almighty and could have made the lavaty rule.how logical we go here!really cool!

(2) Why didn't he introduce wings to humans so that the boy could fly?

yeah nice question! why didn't he make gills for humans so they can breath under water? why ? he could have made water like.... ? why didn't he introduce fire extinguisher to humans so when he get's on fire....? silly God,why did he make fire? why did he make it burn stuff? why? why ? why?:grill:

3) Why didn't he make the human body in an unbreakable way so that a fall would not hurt a little boy?

cool another why why question

Also, if God has this "good plan" for the people who didn't survive to experience life, then why doesn't he just skip life as a whole, and provide everyone with this "good plan"? I don't get it, what's the point in having life if he's capable of just skipping it with thie "good plan" of his?

i will explain that in why afterlife and soul exist.

What if you're wrong, what if there is no afterlife, then is that suffering all of a sudden unneccessary?

If we are wrong => nothing will happen and we will be gone forever and we just vanish forever, knowing that God is bad and oooh I wanna kill you god oooh i,m mad at you...but we are gone and all the discussion is dead

If we are right => all the discussion here will sound silly and perhaps we are both standing in the row waiting to be questioned by God!! hmm how cool.

OK here we go.for the existence of soul or afterlife I guess if you search the net for scientific evidence you will find good ones.If you think they are not logical then please tell.I put some nice ones here:

Near death experience : Bold Scientists Say: PROOF Soul Exists

Some soulish tests! :Physical Evidence of the Soul

Theories of spirituality : Is there scientific evidence that the soul exists - Theories of Spirituality - Helium

 

[LooseEnd]

Are you joking? {F=m.delta(V)} so if the relative velocity would be near zero then perhaps we had no collision after that!! sounds awesome,perhaps we couldn't play baseball then hehe

I'm also a BSc Engineer. So we do not need to go in to these things. But please pay a little more attention, next time before you are posting.

(1)Why did he create Gravity? I suggest he could have created a perfect phenomena called lavity. The rules of lavity are the same as gravity except it has one special quality. When two objects are moving toward each other lavity will introduce a force that pushes the relative motion to be zero, the force will be proportional to the distance in such a way when a collision occurs, the relative velocity would be very close to zero. Now of course that is crazy in the world we see, but GOD is perfect and almighty, he could have done it.

All the other things you have said are, again and again repeating, same thing when you can see that, there's no example that will win over the perfection argument. Or if you don't see that it is really amazing considering that you are an Engineer and all. Anyway its no use talking the same thing over and over, so.... Thank you for your wisdom, and words. I thank you.

OK here we go.for the existence of soul or afterlife I guess if you search the net for scientific evidence you will find good ones.If you think they are not logical then please tell.I put some nice ones here:

Opps. I saw this last minute. I assume all those are logical. I never said I believe in afterlife or not. I already stopped this discussion. But will surely go through the links tomorow.

 

[ManTimeForgot]

I would like to discuss this because I think by far this is the cleverest example given by you.

Firstly,-------Off topic-------
The gravity rule does not say earth will attract everything towards itself. It says two masses will have an attraction such a way that the attraction is propotional to the multiplication of masses and inversly propotional to the squre of distance between masses. In other words, The attraction is two way.
----------------------------------------------

Secondly, Who is to bad???? Simply GOD is bad.

Why? Can give millions of reasons.

(1)Why did he create Gravity? I suggest he could have created a perfect phenomena called lavity. The rules of lavity are the same as gravity except it has one special quality. When two objects are moving toward each other lavity will introduce a force that pushes the relative motion to be zero, the force will be proportional to the distance in such a way when a collision occurs, the relative velocity would be very close to zero. Now of course that is crazy in the world we see, but GOD is perfect and almighty, he could have done it.

(2) Why didn't he introduce wings to humans so that the boy could fly?

(3) Why didn't he make the human body in an unbreakable way so that a fall would not hurt a little boy?
....
.....
I can go all day if you want. What you need to understand is, that there is absolutely no logical way, no example of this living world, that you can use to break this theory. you will eventually have to say "He do bad now for a greater good at the end", which is just what you believe with no proof, no logics no nothing.

You are presuming that "God" has unlimited ability to influence reality. That is simply not true. "God's" will is not a presupposition of Omnipotence or Omniscience and is only limited in conception by Omnibenevolence. A "God" which respects free will in its entirety (meaning he will not violate the free will of any living being within the cosmos, not just humans) would pretty much sit around and wait for whatever it is the cosmos was supposed to do did do (assuming it was supposed to do anything).

MTF

 

[other-side]

I'm also a BSc Engineer.

Happy to hear that LooseEnd

All the other things you have said are, again and again repeating, same thing when you can see that, there's no example that will win over the perfection argument.

I said that before.I believe we have 7 planes of existence:
Physical,Astral, Mental, Buddhic, Atmic, Anupadaka, and Adi planes

Physical is in the bottom and the most massive one.It has the most limited rules because of it's nature. The Astral Plane is similar to the physical plane but it has rules that make it look better when compared with the physical(like the lavity rule you mentioned),time is extended,there is no gravity and logic has a higher position here.

let me put a nice description here (book:Astral Dynamics,Robert Bruce):

The Eastern names commonly used to describe higher levels are to the average Western person
fairly meaningless. Higher dimensions also do not have signposts in them saying "Welcome to the
Astral Planes — Ta... Daaa!" or "Mental Planes — Watch Your Mind!" or "Buddhic Planes —Love One Another!" I have therefore chosen to use my own names for some of the more understandable and less abstract higher dimensional levels, as I have perceived them during some of my more extraordinary projection-cum-mystical experiences.

If you enter this level, please do not try to rationalize or understand it, for this is way beyond
mere mortal understanding. Just accept what you find there, go with the flow and enjoy it! The feel of this level is what, I believe, led the ancient Vikings to name the mythical path into Azgard the Rainbow Bridge. It truly looks and feels as if you are walking up a living rainbow bridge into a
spectacular wonderland where it would be easy to imagine the gods must surely dwell. Exist here in
wondering amazement. Let loose the child within you and enjoy this fairy wonderland, soaking
inspiration from every passing cloud. Everything feels very real and solid here, time is more
distorted than in the high astral dimension, and reality is fluid, kaleidoscopic, and abstract in the
extreme!

So see we are located in the physical world which is limited in time and dimensions.These limitations will not let it to be a perfect place that's why even if we agree with this perfection argument perhaps we will get to the astral or mental planes, won't we?

Or if you don't see that it is really amazing considering that you are an Engineer and all. Anyway its no use talking the same thing over and over, so.... Thank you for your wisdom, and words. I thank you.

OK consider me a low-educated engineer.I just tried to tell you my points by giving different examples. and I apologize if It sounds that i,m repeating. i,m just not good at English and that's what I always fear!

 

[Aquitaine]

ManTimeForgot, why you reply to others but you no reply to me (#91) ?

 

[ManTimeForgot]

ManTimeForgot, why you reply to others but you no reply to me (#91) ?

Apologies the discussion had progressed so far and having been sick the past couple days I had forgotten about it. The response is simple and as such I put it off "until later."


You are arguing as though human free will is the only form of free will to consider. Why does it matter if "humanity largely agrees" something is bad? What if in order to avert natural disaster here on earth it requires 3 times as much disaster in some galaxy 5,000 light years away? We don't know. We are arguing from a position of nearly absolute ignorance and second guessing the "mind" and "plans" of "God" is tantamount to pure hubris. We have no idea what consequences changing the world to avert natural disasters would cause to our world, much less our universe.

Either "God" does not wish to intervene (in which case who are we to tell "God" what to do?) or "God" cannot intervene without violating some principle or tenet (in which case how are we supposed to know what gives "God" pause?). In either case "Free Will" is what it is, and we should accept the situations as they are. The systems exist as they are for a reason, and all other systems are nested inside other systems which work as they do. Change one thing and everything else must also change. This is why notions of "retrocausal time-travel" scare me half to death. We have no idea what sort of havoc such a thing would wreak upon the present much less its consequences on the future.

MTF

 

[Aquitaine]

"Apologies the discussion had progressed so far and having been sick the past couple days I had forgotten about it. The response is simple and as such I put it off "until later.""

Ah I see, well then if you were ill then no worries about it.

"You are arguing as though human free will is the only form of free will to consider. Why does it matter if "humanity largely agrees" something is bad? What if in order to avert natural disaster here on earth it requires 3 times as much disaster in some galaxy 5,000 light years away? We don't know. We are arguing from a position of nearly absolute ignorance and second guessing the "mind" and "plans" of "God" is tantamount to pure hubris. We have no idea what consequences changing the world to avert natural disasters would cause to our world, much less our universe."

You're right, not only that but I don't believe there is a God (until proven otherwise), and you have beliefs about God which do not fit the same concept as the Monotheist model. So we're both kinda arguing in the dark to each other lol. I had the same problem with Riverwolf, since my original posts were "aimed" at the Monotheist God Concept, so it didn't really apply to Riverwolf's beliefs.

Although I would say that Human Free Will should be our priority, and every aspect needed for Human survival should also be considered (i.e our enviroment and animals etc). Who cares if changing things here would drastically affect something at the other side of the galaxy, but then again as you said - who knows if that is true?

"Either "God" does not wish to intervene (in which case who are we to tell "God" what to do?) or "God" cannot intervene without violating some principle or tenet (in which case how are we supposed to know what gives "God" pause?). In either case "Free Will" is what it is, and we should accept the situations as they are. The systems exist as they are for a reason, and all other systems are nested inside other systems which work as they do. Change one thing and everything else must also change. This is why notions of "retrocausal time-travel" scare me half to death. We have no idea what sort of havoc such a thing would wreak upon the present much less its consequences on the future."

Yes, change one thing and something else will have to change, that's true. Like cause and effect. However, it doesn't neccessarily mean that to change something here would (in accordance to our judgement) negatively change something else, elsewhere.

I guess, like with Riverwolf our discussion is kinda now redundant, since we're both arguing in the dark, and both have different "God" concepts/beliefs etc.

I guess the only thing I can say is that, my points will only apply to someone who believes in the Monotheist God concept (i.e the ones put forward in Christianity, Judaism and Islam).

Finally, the only thing I can say with regards to your beliefs is that they're just that - beliefs. No "proof" has yet been put forward by any theory which tries to explain the Universe/Life, or what happens after life, or whether or not their is a God etc - but of course, you've already acknowledged that.

So...... I guess, erm until a Monotheist comes along - nice chattin' with ya xD