does initiator exist

[1137]

No.

No because an initiator entity would also need an initiator.

Bringing in an initiator would have to presume that the initiator has no cause but to will something has a cause. In short, logically the uncaused would have to be able to will something without cause to do so, without thinking about it.

Well something being around and not conscious is the same as an initiator in the sense the they are not uncaused, rather necessary if we use the cosmological argument. However, how can something think without a brain?

Something started space-time, but I doubt it's conscious.

Agreed, nothing conscious is implied at any point.

and id like to hear exactly how belief in magic and faith, is logical because ancient men who knew nothing of the natural world around them, took a stab in the dark and created their own version through mythology and theology.

Whoa whoa whoa, show some respect for the ancients. They did amazing for what they were able to observe. The Egyptian deities are my favorite as they truly were representations of forces of nature, and with the information they had available their beliefs were highly logical relative to when they were around. Don't judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree.

I mean, look at the ancient alchemists. Thanks to them we are able to study how matter interacts, not to mention chemistry requires us to delve into physics itself. It is the central science, and without that stab in the dark mythological magic we may not have chemistry.

 

[Breathe]

I dunno. It's starting to become less and less appealing when they showed that the universe is accelerating in its expansion.

Ah, that's true.

Damn you, facts!

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

There is no more reason to believe in a single entity doing the creation, as there might be with multiple entities cooperating in the creation.
However I do not know any religion that takes this view.

Who knows.... it might simply be the result of a lab accident or experiment. It does not have to be intentional.

I can believe creation was intentional, but I rather doubt all the outcomes were foreseen, or even estimated.
(I expect this will be an unpopular view. so it might be close to the truth)

 

[McBell]

Hi Mohammed
Yes, if you accept that something cannot come from nothing. Then in other words everything has a single source. One could try to refute that logic... which would be interesting.

Except your single source has to have a source simply because it has to be a something in order to have something come from it.
Thus we have to have an infinite amount of somethings.

And the second you give your favorite source a free pass, you undermine your own premise.

 

[McBell]

Absolutely because the assumption is based on logic.

Only if you completely toss out logic and replace it with assumptions, wishful thinking, and denial to build your premises and bring back logic once your premises are safely tucked in.

 

[Onkara]

Except your single source has to have a source simply because it has to be a something in order to have something come from it.
Thus we have to have an infinite amount of somethings.

And the second you give your favorite source a free pass, you undermine your own premise.

Hi
There is the risk that we think there should be an infinite amount of something, but this is where logic jumps in and yells at us to stop as it is reductio ad infinitum.

Not sure I understand the line about the free pass, could you explain please?

 

[McBell]

Hi
There is the risk that we think there should be an infinite amount of something, but this is where logic jumps in and yells at us to stop as it is reductio ad infinitum.

Not sure I understand the line about the free pass, could you explain please?

The claim is that something cannot come from nothing.
Therefore there could never have been a time when there was nothing.
there always had to be something for something to come from.

The problem here is that those who try to use the "something cannot come from nothing" want to make a something exempt from the claim that something cannot come from nothing. the second they make one exception to the claim, they invalidate the claim.

Another example of the same problem is the whole "life cannot come from non-life" argument.
Many people claim that life cannot come from non-life proves that god exists, but then make god an exemption from the very rule they claim proves god.

 

[Onkara]

The claim is that something cannot come from nothing.
Therefore there could never have been a time when there was nothing.
there always had to be something for something to come from.

The problem here is that those who try to use the "something cannot come from nothing" want to make a something exempt from the claim that something cannot come from nothing. the second they make one exception to the claim, they invalidate the claim.

Another example of the same problem is the whole "life cannot come from non-life" argument.
Many people claim that life cannot come from non-life proves that god exists, but then make god an exemption from the very rule they claim proves god.

I see, so they create a duality of God versus creation?
I struggled with that until I found patheism (or panenthism) where Creator and creation are one.

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

thank you all for replying to my post!

if we have an infinite chain of initiatirs "entity comes from entity"

how can we explain "integration" betwen those entities?

 

[idav]

Well something being around and not conscious is the same as an initiator in the sense the they are not uncaused, rather necessary if we use the cosmological argument. However, how can something think without a brain?

Will has to do with energy and action potential which shows to exist. Whatever set things in motion did so in a deterministic manner without actual intent. Especially for us humans, we only seem to make our own choices but such has been predetermined.

 

[1137]

Will has to do with energy and action potential which shows to exist. Whatever set things in motion did so in a deterministic manner without actual intent. Especially for us humans, we only seem to make our own choices but such has been predetermined.

Agreed.