Does it matter?

[Faithofchristian]

I definitely accept my teachers version of 1Thess. 4:17 over what you say it is!

I believe we will be caught up in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air, not, we will be changed to spirit and combine with the armies of heaven to meet Jesus in the spirit, that is ridiculous!

So what your saying is that, You will exalt your teachers word over God's word.

When you exalt man's word over God's word, your in alot of trouble.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

I guess you haven't read the Bible, because that is not what is Written.

Please enlighten me to your version of the truth then.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

we will be changed to spirit and combine with the armies of heaven to meet Jesus in the spirit, that is ridiculous!

I guess you came up with the above nonsense all by yourself?

So what your saying is that, You will exalt your teachers word over God's word.

 

[Faithofchristian]

I guess you came up with the above nonsense all by yourself?

So you say, which proves nothing, only that you have no knowledge or understanding of yourself.
So I ask again.
What and who are the Locust army in Revelation 9:3.
Why is there silence in heaven for a half an hour. Revelation 8:1

You call it nonsense, but yet you can't explain what the symbols are in Revelation.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

So you say, which proves nothing, only that you have no knowledge or understanding of yourself.
So I ask again.
What and who are the Locust army in Revelation 9:3.
Why is there silence in heaven for a half an hour. Revelation 8:1

You call it nonsense, but yet you can't explain what the symbols are in Revelation.

Lol, are you now, or maybe at one time a Jehovah's witness? You sure like to divert the way they do!

How did we get from the Rapture in 1Thess 4:17 to the above? You asked who I believed the dead in Christ to be, I told you, but you are avoiding telling me who they REALLY are.

You went from the clouds in 1Thess being the armies of heaven to, the locust army. Let's stay in 1 Thess please! Who are the dead in Christ according to your vast knowledge?

 

[Faithofchristian]

Lol, are you now, or maybe at one time a Jehovah's witness? You sure like to divert the way they do!

How did we get from the Rapture in 1Thess 4:17 to the above? You asked who I believed the dead in Christ to be, I told you, but you are avoiding telling me who they REALLY are.

You went from the clouds in 1Thess being the armies of heaven to, the locust army. Let's stay in 1 Thess please! Who are the dead in Christ according to your vast knowledge?

I Do Not belong to any church or any Religious Organization.

In speaking about the dead in Christ, If people would Study the scriptures Throughout, You would find that there are two definitions in referring to the dead.

When your body dies there is nothing left but a dead corps.Which in time returns back to dust.

Then there is the Spiritually dead. Which are Atheist and whosoever does not believe in God. These are those in the scriptures are referred to as Spiritually dead.

Therefore the dead in Christ, are the Spiritually dead that shall rise first to be taken in Judgement, And those that are alive and Remain will rise up to meet Christ in the Spirit. For all shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye. 1st Cor 15:52.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

I Do Not belong to any church or any Religious Organization.

I believe that! Especially with the following comment,

Therefore the dead in Christ, are the Spiritually dead

You know that's blasphemy, right, to say that "in Christ" they are spiritually dead?

Romans 6:11 (ESV Strong's) 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Romans 8:1 (ESV Strong's) 1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Romans 12:5 (ESV Strong's) 5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

And, the Bible says,

Matthew 8:22 (ESV Strong's) 22 And Jesus said to him, “Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead.”

2 Timothy 2:11 (ESV Strong's) 11 The saying is trustworthy, for: If we have died with him, we will also live with him;


Do you think before you type?

Then there is the Spiritually dead. Which are Atheist and whosoever does not believe in God.

Therefore the dead in Christ, are the Spiritually dead that shall rise first to be taken in
Judgement

The spiritually dead are atheists and those who don't believe in God, but they are dead IN Christ?

If people would Study the scriptures Throughout

Yeah, maybe you should!

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (ESV Strong's) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

It says that the "dead in Christ" will rise FIRST, then we who are alive will be "caught up TOGETHER with them" and will always be with the Lord!

 

[Faithofchristian]

I believe that! Especially with the following comment,



You know that's blasphemy, right, to say that "in Christ" they are spiritually dead?

Romans 6:11 (ESV Strong's) 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Romans 8:1 (ESV Strong's) 1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Romans 12:5 (ESV Strong's) 5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

And, the Bible says,

Matthew 8:22 (ESV Strong's) 22 And Jesus said to him, “Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead.”

2 Timothy 2:11 (ESV Strong's) 11 The saying is trustworthy, for: If we have died with him, we will also live with him;


Do you think before you type?






The spiritually dead are atheists and those who don't believe in God, but they are dead IN Christ?




Yeah, maybe you should!

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (ESV Strong's) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

It says that the "dead in Christ" will rise FIRST, then we who are alive will be "caught up TOGETHER with them" and will always be with the Lord!

First of all you have No idea what Blasphemy is.
Can you give the book and chapter and Verse's where you say that's Blasphemy?

That's right the dead shall rise first, to be Judge. Then those who are alive and remain shall go up to meet the Lord in the Spirit.

Second I said nothing about the Unbelievers as being in Christ.

The dead in Christ are the Unbelievers, they have No spiritual awareness of Christ, Therefore the Unbelievers are dead to Christ.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Second I said nothing about the Unbelievers as being in Christ.

You clearly don't pay attention to what you write

The dead in Christ are the Unbelievers, they have No spiritual awareness of Christ

You said NOTHING about unbelievers as being in Christ, but, "the dead in Christ are the unbelievers".

Just another person rambling trying to SEEM spiritual, and not keeping track of what they say!

 

[djhwoodwerks]

That's right the dead shall rise first, to be Judge.

You clearly don't understand scripture, please read Revelation 20:4-6 and tell me if the dead is raised to judgment first.

 

[Faithofchristian]

You clearly don't pay attention to what you write




You said NOTHING about unbelievers as being in Christ, but, "the dead in Christ are the unbelievers".

Just another person rambling trying to SEEM spiritual, and not keeping track of what they say!

Seeing you have no idea what it means to be dead in Christ.
To be dead in Christ, meaning they are Spiritually dead. Having No Spiritual awareness of who Christ is, They believe not in Christ or in God. Therefore they dead in Christ.

 

[Faithofchristian]

You clearly don't understand scripture, please read Revelation 20:4-6 and tell me if the dead is raised to judgment first.

No you clearly don't understand scriptures.
The dead in Revelation 20:4-6 are those who are Spiritually dead. They are not dead in graves. No one's in graves in
Revelation 20:4-6 These are the Unbelievers who are Spiritually dead.believe not in God.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Seeing you have no idea what it means to be dead in Christ.
To be dead in Christ, meaning they are Spiritually dead. Having No Spiritual awareness of who Christ is, They believe not in Christ or in God. Therefore they dead in Christ.

They don't believe IN Christ, but they are dead IN Christ? Nonsense!!

Do you understand what "IN Christ" means?

Romans 6:11 (ESV Strong's) 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Romans 6:23 (ESV Strong's) 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 8:1 (ESV Strong's) 1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Romans 8:2 (ESV Strong's) 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.

Please tell me how some can be sanctified IN Christ, and others be spiritually dead IN Christ!

1 Corinthians 1:2 (ESV Strong's) 2 To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:


You can have your blasphemous beliefs, I am done communicating with you, good luck to you!

 

[Daisies4me]

Take a look at the following verse in whatever version you use. Notice the difference? Which one is correct and DOES it matter?
Rom 5:2 (through) Whom also we have HAD access to the faith (into) this grace (in) which we have STOOD; and we are boasting (in) expectation (hope) of the glory of God.
Something else for your consideration. How does this verse relate to Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

(quote)

Hi Scrooge
I find it beneficial to look at the context when attempting to glean accurate understanding from a scripture. I hope this will also help any who are wondering on the matter, as I present the surrounding scriptures to complete an understanding of the Bible passage:

Romans 5: therefore, now that we have been declared righteous as a result of faith, let us enjoy peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
2 through whom we also have obtained access by faith into this undeserved kindness in which we now stand; and let us rejoice, based on hope of the glory of God
3 Not only that, but let us rejoice while in tribulations , since we know that tribulation produces endurance;
4 endurance , in turn, an approved condition , in turn hope;
5 and the hope does not lead to disappointment, because the love of God has been poured out into our hearts through the holy spirit , which was given to us
6 For , indeed, while we were still weak, Christ died for us ungodly men at the appointed time.
7 For hardly would anyone die for a righteous man, though perhaps for a good man someone may dare to die.
8 But God recommends his own love to us in that , while we were yet sinners , Christ died for us.

12 That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned--.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 and it is as a free gift that they are being declared righteous by his undeserved kindness through the release by ransom paid by Christ Jesus,
25 God presented him as an offering for propitiation through faith in his blood. This was to demonstrate his own righteousness , because God, in his forebearance, was forgiving the sins that occurred in the past.

~the New World translation of the HOLY SCRIPTURES 2013~

IMHO, when properly presented, accurate understanding comes with ease.

may you have peace

(quote)

 

[Daisies4me]

Thank you , I appreciate that. But why so many recent ones that just seem to be saying the same thing? I understand that the King James version can be a little difficult to read, and the need for a newer translation or two to fit the times since then, But there are just so many contemporary versions that basically say the same thing. It just seems to add to confusion. Maybe I'm missing something?

(quote)

Hi Missmay

I have enjoyed reading the 'foreward' in many translations of the Bible. many times, intent is stated therein. Sometimes more subtly than others.. lots to glean in a foreward...

take care
(quote)

 

[Daisies4me]

No, the rapture doesn't teach that people will "fly away to save their souls".

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (ESV Strong's) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

No one flies away to save their souls, Jesus descends and we are caught up in the clouds to MEET Him in the air. That is the rapture!
Continue reading chapter 5, the first few verses talk about the "Day of the Lord", which is the wrath of God being unleashed on the world, correct?

Then it says in verse 9,

1 Thessalonians 5:9-10 (ESV Strong's) 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him.

If there is no rapture, and the church is on the earth during the tribulation, they will be subject to the wrath of God, but it says that the church is not destined for wrath. The church will not be on the earth when God's wrath is unleashed on the world.

(quote)

Hi dj
interesting opinion. in my studies, however, I find a much broader understanding of the so-called 'rapture'. of course, there are many opinions , as it is a many faceted Bible subject. I offer some of my understandings for your perusal. What will happen when Jesus comes “with power and great glory”? This will be a time for rewarding those who are faithful and for punishing those who are not. (Matt. 24:46, 47, 50, 51; 25:19, 28-30)
According to Matthew, Jesus finished giving the composite sign with the parable of the sheep and the goats, saying: “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.” (Matt. 25:31-33) The parable finishes with the words: “These [the goats] will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life.”—Matt. 25:46.
What will happen after Gog of Magog starts the attack on God’s people? Both Matthew and Mark record the same event: “[The Son of man] will send out the angels and will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from earth’s extremity to heaven’s extremity.” (Mark 13:27; Matt. 24:31)
what is this gathering work that Jesus mentions? It is the time when the remaining ones of the 144,000 will receive their heavenly reward. (1 Thess. 4:15-17; Rev. 14:1) This event will take place at some point after the beginning of the attack by Gog of Magog. (Ezek. 38:11) Then these words of Jesus will be fulfilled: “At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father.”—Matt. 13:43. Does this mean that there will be a “rapture” of the anointed ones? Many in Christendom believe, according to this teaching, that Christians will be bodily caught up from the earth. Then, they expect that Jesus will visibly return to rule the earth. However, the Bible clearly shows that “the sign of the Son of man” will appear in heaven and that Jesus will come “on the clouds of heaven.” (Matt. 24:30) Both of these expressions imply invisibility. Additionally, “flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom.” So those who will be taken to heaven will first need to be “changed, in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet.” (Read 1 Corinthians 15:50-53.)
Once all the 144,000 are in heaven, the final preparations for the marriage of the Lamb can begin. (Rev. 19:9)
Remember, shortly before the remaining ones of the 144,000 are taken to heaven, Gog will attack God’s people. (Ezek. 38:16) What reaction does this provoke? On earth, God’s people will appear to be defenseless. They will obey the instructions given in the days of King Jehoshaphat: “You will not need to fight this battle. Take your position, stand still, and see the salvation of Jehovah in your behalf. O Judah and Jerusalem, do not be afraid or be terrified.” (2 Chron. 20:17) In heaven, however, there is a different reaction. Referring to the time when all the anointed are in heaven, Revelation 17:14 tells us this about the enemies of God’s people: “These will battle with the Lamb, but because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them. Also, those with him who are called and chosen and faithful will do so.” Together with his 144,000 corulers in heaven, Jesus will come to the rescue of God’s people here on earth. remember proverbs 2:21-22, and Psalms 37:9-11, & 29. The resulting war of Armageddon will lead to the magnifying of Jehovah’s holy name. (Rev. 16:16) At that time, all goatlike ones “will depart into everlasting cutting-off.” The earth will finally be cleansed of all wickedness, and the great crowd will pass through the final part of the great tribulation. With all preparations completed, the climax of the book of Revelation, the marriage of the Lamb, can take place. (Rev. 21:1-4) All those surviving on the earth will bask in God’s favor and experience bounteous expressions of his love. We have much to look forward to in the coming fulfillment of God's Inspired writings, don't we?
Peace to you

(quote)

 

[Faithofchristian]

Does it Matter
Only if the two connecting matters come to fit the matter, without matter it only becomes a Matter of time, Therefore one could say it Matter, then does that Matter, to ones Matter.so it could Matter to another Matter to correspond to the Matter of the Matter.so that leaves us with.
Does it Matter.

 

[Daisies4me]

No there is a connect there. Do you see it?
Out side of that the version of Rom. 5:2 that I posted contradicts all most all other versions of the text. Do you see that? Is it correct or are all the other versions correct missmay?

(quote)
Hi there, scrooge
Can you please be more specific? what is it that you are using to uphold your observation of a supposed 'lie' in the scriptures?

thanks

 

[Scrooge]

(quote)
Hi there, scrooge
Can you please be more specific? what is it that you are using to uphold your observation of a supposed 'lie' in the scriptures?

thanks

(quote)
Hi there, scrooge
Can you please be more specific? what is it that you are using to uphold your observation of a supposed 'lie' in the scriptures?

thanks

Hey there Daisies4me,
Lie in Scriptures? No lie in Scriptures my friend only in some translations of the Scriptures. Romans 5:2 should be translated as follows.

Rom 5:2 Through Whom also we have had the access to the faith into the grace. This (grace) in which we have stood.
Also we are boasting in (the) expectation of the glory of God.

Most translations have the words I highlighted in bold in the present active tense. This would be wrong. Those words are in the Perfect tense in the Greek text and that is how they should be translated or they are wrong. They are a false testimony to what GOD had intended; a lie.


The perfect tense in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in
English, and describes an action which is viewed as having been
completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be
repeated.
Jesus' last cry from the cross, TETELESTAI ("It is finished!")
is a good example of the perfect tense used in this sense,
namely "It [the atonement] has been accomplished, completely,
once and for all time."
Certain antiquated verb forms in Greek, such as those related
to seeing (eidw) or knowing (oida) will use the perfect tense
in a manner equivalent to the normal past tense. These few
cases are exception to the normal rule and do not alter the
normal connotation of the perfect tense stated above.

 

[Daisies4me]

The reason as to why so many other Versions, is because back at the time king James was having the Hebrew and Greek language translated into English.
The Roman Catholic Church, did not want the scriptures to be in hands of the people.


But wanted the people to go to a priest to have the scriptures read to them, This way people would be kept in the dark of not actually knowing for sure what the scriptures actually does say.
Many attempts to assassinate king James by the Roman Catholic Church were trying to take place, to stop the scriptures from put in the hands of the people.
So the Roman Catholic Church started to put out all these different Versions of the bible, to keep people in confusion and in darkness.

Even though king James had the scriptures translated from the Hebrew and Greek language into English.
There are some Words that got lost in Translation. But they did the best they could with what tools they had at the time of their Translation of Words into the English language.

(quote)

Good morning
just adding a thought; the KJV was not the first translation of the Scriptures into the english language--- Just sayin'...

take care

(quote)