Does it really matter if we came from monkies?

[Scuba Pete]

Ceridwen, what you call "creative interpretation", I merely call scripture. As it is written in the New Testament "A day with the lord is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like a day".

I see God beginning "slow" and then building up to what is really improtant. What's the big "take-a-way" in Genesis? We were created in God's image. The Bible never ever tries to be a science book.

 

[Trying_to_learn]

Once u see ur parents putting christmas presents under the tree rather then santa... u can say oh santa is still there but he brings more presents to needy children... or u can say oh this is wut christmas is about..GIVING! once u see something wrong with the bible u can either say oh god didn't mean it that way its like this... or u can say oh the point was to give morality to idiots... we are no longer idiots so we can come up with better laws then a 2 mellinia old book. Those make a living off religion would rather have u prefer the first way or they woudln't make a living. that is why ... earth not bieng flat... earth not bieng the center of the univerese... and evolution are so violently opposed by those who make a living off religion.

 

[fromthe heart]

Once u see ur parents putting christmas presents under the tree rather then santa... u can say oh santa is still there but he brings more presents to needy children... or u can say oh this is wut christmas is about..GIVING! once u see something wrong with the bible u can either say oh god didn't mean it that way its like this... or u can say oh the point was to give morality to idiots... we are no longer idiots so we can come up with better laws then a 2 mellinia old book. Those make a living off religion would rather have u prefer the first way or they woudln't make a living. that is why ... earth not bieng flat... earth not bieng the center of the univerese... and evolution are so violently opposed by those who make a living off religion.

Gee...then I should be rich...but no...just don't believe in evolution.

 

[Trying_to_learn]

**MOD POST **
Post deleted. Please present your opinions in a more educated, thoughtful manner. This forum is not the place for ramblings like this.

 

[fromthe heart]

R U A Priest... If So U Make Ez Money While Other Ppl Do Things That Actually Help Human Kind

Do you live the life of a true priest? I don't mean to be confrontational but unless you walk in anothers shoes you should keep your mouth shut....perhaps a priests life may not seem important to you but you aren't the one who depends on "that' priest. :tsk:

 

[Trying_to_learn]

So u do want ppl to depend on u
If they don't believe in ur religion they won't depend on u
If evoloution is right they won't believe in religion
-U will do w.e it takes to keep ppl away from the idea of evoloution
No offence but ppl who come from ur line
KILLED Bruno for saying that the earth goes around the sun, and socratez for not believing in some stupid fairy tale, and so on.

 

[Trying_to_learn]

Oh yeah the crusades were cuz of u too
And the ppl in the middle ages didn't make a revolotion cuz u scared them of hell
FEEL THE GUILT

 

[Scuba Pete]

Ttl...

These statements are not only false, condescending and inflammatory, but they are also WAY off topic. If you want to talk about collective guilt go find your own thread. Besides, trying to foist guilt on all Christendom for the crusades is like blaming all pagans for the Mongol hordes. It just doesn't wash.

 

[Trying_to_learn]

that was only for "from the heart"
and i think this topic finished at
"
Once u see ur parents putting christmas presents under the tree rather then santa... u can say oh santa is still there but he brings more presents to needy children... or u can say oh this is wut christmas is about..GIVING! once u see something wrong with the bible u can either say oh god didn't mean it that way its like this... or u can say oh the point was to give morality to idiots... we are no longer idiots so we can come up with better laws then a 2 mellinia old book. Those make a living off religion would rather have u prefer the first way or they woudln't make a living. that is why ... earth not bieng flat... earth not bieng the center of the univerese... and evolution are so violently opposed by those who make a living off religion." and that a person who has a problem with evolotion is that who needs to protect his job as the person who tells fairy tails.
___________________________

 

[Feathers in Hair]

TTL, please pay attention to what NetDoc is saying. And while I welcome you here, being newish doesn't mean you can 'get away' with being unkind.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Ttl,

methinks you misunderstand what would motivate someone to become a priest, what you would have to sacrifice to be one, and just how hard this kind of work can be. Just being opinionated and repeating your fallacious line of logic does not further your arguments.

 

[No*s]

TTL,

I don't think you have any idea of the work a priest does. It's not exactly a cakewalk.

 

[linwood]

If he used it as a tool... then why did he say differently in the wholy books?

Where was this stated in the Bible?

-Darwin did say that i take it bak if u would stop annoying me soo much

He said it as an afterthought as in..
"If I knew it would be this much trouble I would have kept my mouth shut."

-"Two other Italian scientists of the time, Galileo and Bruno, embraced the Copernican theory unreservedly and as a result suffered much personal injury at the hands of the powerful church inquisitors.

Galieo was under "House Arrest", granted it sucks and it`s wrong but it`s hardly chained in the dungeon.
Copernicus was persecuted for his ideas but he didn`t even publish Revolutions until after his death, with a disclaimer attached by the publisher.
His fear of publishing it was due to his insecurity about it as much as fear of the church.
Bruno had the same idea as Copernicus and was burned at the stake.

I`ll give ya that last one.

 

[Trying_to_learn]

Sry i didn't meant to be so mean to christians, that wasn't my intent. when "fromtheheart" started talking about how bieng a priest isn't just getting free money. well i see all religious figures the same
-They don't do any physical good to mankind (build a house, make food, etc.)
-They do however continue to preach about sumting
-They get money for doing so
-They wouldn't want to stop getting money, so they will continue to oppose science that opposes the religion.. examples above. "Socrates was a victim too"
-This is sumting disgusting, to stop the truth from coming out just so U can have respect and money and not to as much as others do to gain the same things.
If now some1 will suggest that bieng a priest, or a mullah ( i m including all such figures) is very hard work, i would like u to see how much work a normal laborer does in eastern europe and how much work the priest there does. I would then like u to check how much each has too. I m not east european therefore i gave this example so u see i m not just bieng biased or patriotic. The Religious Figure is UNIVERSAL in this aspect. only here they can hide it.
Sry again if i took to topic off line... I m very anti-religious (exept buddhism) that is why i joined this site. I m not too sure of the rules so can some body clarify untill wut limit do we have freedom of speech here? Tnx again and sry again if i offeneded anyone, didn't mean to.

 

[Trying_to_learn]

Bak to the topic
In the bible it does say Definetly, FOR SURE, 100% that god made man out of clay and it emphasizes that it in no way did he creat earth and then life on earth started to grow. It said I MADE ADAM AND SENT HIM TO EARTH. Evoloution says we came from apes not heaven.
so only one can be right, which one?

 

[meogi]

so only one can be right, which one?

Falacy. Neither has to be right.

I m not too sure of the rules so can some body clarify untill wut limit do we have freedom of speech here?

No personal attacks and no deliberately provoking members into arguments, and you should be fine. Evidence over opinion always helps too... makes people disagree with you less. Like:

well i see all religious figures the same (list of stuff)

While you may see all them the same, not all of them are the same, nor are the items on your list firm points suggesting they are (nor are many of them factual). Being a priest is much like a managerial position at a business... does a lot of work, perhaps not back breaking, but they arn't doing manual labor, so I don't see why it should be (nor why they should be compaired).

As for the topic (sorry for late entrance): No, it doesn't matter. But I agree with Ceridwen on this one, NetDoc. Scripture can only be 'creatively interpreted' to a certain degree... why does one day dealing with a certain event mean an entirely different amount of time than one day in another event? There doesn't have to be a defined constant for 'one day,' but it gets confusing when it keeps switching around. Of course, if 'one day' is only special when referring to creation - why?

 

[No*s]

As for the topic (sorry for late entrance): No, it doesn't matter. But I agree with Ceridwen on this one, NetDoc. Scripture can only be 'creatively interpreted' to a certain degree... why does one day dealing with a certain event mean an entirely different amount of time than one day in another event? There doesn't have to be a defined constant for 'one day,' but it gets confusing when it keeps switching around. Of course, if 'one day' is only special when referring to creation - why?

Why interpret it one way or another? Do we really have any idea how much of it was literal, how much symbolic, or if it was both? No matter what reading we take up, we bring our presuppositions when the original ones are largely unknown.

ND's perspective (and mine) is that it is Holy Scripture, and there is a long-standing Christian (and Jewish before it) practice of interpreting Scripture non-literally in places. St. Basil, for instance, showed some validity of Christians understanding Scriptures in light of the science of their day in the Hexaemeron.

ND is in a good, long tradition in his approach to Scripture here.

 

[painted wolf]

Well I have to say from my religious standpoint the theory of Evolution has no ill effect on my faith.
If anything it adds to it, that whole 'we are all related' thing.

wa:do

 

[robtex]

What stops the religious "right" from being able to humble themselves to allowing God to make them in any fashion he so desired?

Is it a complete inability to comprehend the probability and truth of evolution?

Is it a complete inability to reason that God could use ANY tool to create us, including evolution?

Is it a misguided speciecentricity that makes us feel that we can NOT come from those dang dirty apes?

Just what is the bug under their derriere?

If you look at Judism, who ironically accepts evoultion, you can see a pattern. In Judism man has a covenent or agreement with God. The earth life and universe was created in that religion and man is the bridge between the living creatures and God. To say evoultion is true is to say the bridge was not built for millions or billions of years.

The muslims and Christians drew inspirations from judism including this concept. That there is an intimate relationship between man and God. To say that God took millions or billions of years to get around to making man puts a dent into this theory in my eyes. Either that or he is the biggest procrastonater in the universe.

Also evolution is hypothisised to be random as opposed to guided. It is an arguement against teleology. If Christians Muslims and Jews accept evolution for the most part, they are saying that

Also if evolution is true we will not be the highest species ...one day a better mutatio n will occur if given enough time.

1) God took his time to create his human beings
2) randomness exists in the universe
3) man is not the end or final species

 

[No*s]

If you look at Judism, who ironically accepts evoultion, you can see a pattern. In Judism man has a covenent or agreement with God. The earth life and universe was created in that religion and man is the bridge between the living creatures and God. To say evoultion is true is to say the bridge was not built for millions or billions of years.

The muslims and Christians drew inspirations from judism including this concept. That there is an intimate relationship between man and God. To say that God took millions or billions of years to get around to making man puts a dent into this theory in my eyes. Either that or he is the biggest procrastonater in the universe.

The Christian response is that God sees time a little differently, so that the time it took may seem excrutiatingly long to us, but it really doesn't mean much if one isn't subject to time.

Also evolution is hypothisised to be random as opposed to guided. It is an arguement against teleology. If Christians Muslims and Jews accept evolution for the most part, they are saying that

However, we would also say all randomness is controlled by God. The teleological view here is that evolution is a methodology. It is only by assuming that it must be random that teleology is threatened. From our perspective, evolution makes nature a wonderful, self-correcting, design, and one that is quite awe-inspiring.

Also if evolution is true we will not be the highest species ...one day a better mutatio n will occur if given enough time.

We are quite apocalyptic . Christ will return and things will change, and I don't know how that will happen. So, again, from our perspective, evolution doesn't neccessarily mandate our passing away or a higher species arising on the planet.

Like most things, evolution is simply data, and it hasn't been interpreted. We all place the world we see, to a large degree, into a skin we preconceive. This may change, but we still do it. There aren't any numbers, nor are there miles, but these measurements are essential to our understanding the world.

When theists look at evolution, we look at it through a different lens than the one you've outlined. As such, we really don't see the problems you've listed as problems. I hope that explains how I, at least, look at the points you raised. I strongly suspect NetDoc will concur with me.