Does Jesus' divinity prove his Godship?

[Youtellme]

I've recently bee watching debates on Youtube between Muslims and Trinitarians and one of the things that struck my with the trinitarians is that they believed that because Jesus was of divine origin, ie he came from heaven, that this proves that he was God.

I disagree. Being divine doesn't mean you are God, for instance, the angels are divine too. And so virtually all the scriptures used by the trinitarians did not stand up in my mind.

So, if you are a trinitarian, can you explain your understanding of the divinity of Christ.

 

[Heneni]

Jesus is God because no matter what form Jesus took on he is in essence an exact imprint of the Father. There is no distinction between the INTERNAL glory of the Son and the INTERNAL glory of the Father or the HS regarless of whether he became a man or not.

He did strip himself of his external glory to become a man, but its not the external show that makes him God but his internal character and virtues and holiness and power and and and...

 

[Youtellme]

Jesus is God because no matter what form Jesus took on he is in essence an exact imprint of the Father...

Is being the imprint or reflection of someone the same as being that person?

 

[Heneni]

Is being the imprint or reflection of someone the same as being that person?

No its not. Jesus is not the Father, nor is the Father the Son. Its not about whether they are the same being outwardly but rather its about whether they are exactly the same in character. Which they are. They are one in character. This is an indwelling non changing truth about the trinity. They cannot act contrary to each other. They cannot disagree with each other. They are unable to be divided between each other.

The internal glory of the father, son and HS is exactly the same, that is why they are of the same kind. That kind is GOD. (as opposed to being angels who have a different kind of glory)

The difference between the creatures and the creator is their source of glory. All creatures have glory given to them. The creator is the source of glory. He is glory.

 

[Youtellme]

No its not. Jesus is not the Father, nor is the Father the Son. Its not about whether they are the same being outwardly but rather its about whether they are exactly the same in character. Which they are. They are one in character.

As in a team? Or say in the way a husband and wife are one? Both heading in the same direction, not working against one another?

This is an indwelling non changing truth about the trinity. They cannot act contrary to each other. They cannot disagree with each other. They are unable to be divided between each other.

Would you say that Jesus may have done things differently but submited himself to the Father's will? Luke 22:42

The internal glory of the father, son and HS is exactly the same, that is why they are of the same kind. That kind is GOD. (as opposed to being angels who have a different kind of glory)

Do you believe there is a God Almighty in the Trinity? Do you believe that Jesus had a God, despite as you believe, that he was God? If they are co-equal, was Jesus under a headship arrangement? And if so, what does that mean?

The difference between the creatures and the creator is their source of glory. All creatures have glory given to them. The creator is the source of glory. He is glory.

In the trinity, who would you say was the creator? The Father or the Son? Or the Holfy Spirit?

In addition to those points, what form of worship did the Jews of the OT have?

 

[Heneni]

As in a team? Or say in the way a husband and wife are one? Both heading in the same direction, not working against one another?

The bible uses the husband wife example when speaking about the church and Jesus. In a team there are members who are better at some things than other members of the team. In the trinity they all have the same strengths, but different roles at different times. However no matter what role any member of the trinity has its always to this end: The glorify the other members of the trinity.

Would you say that Jesus may have done things differently but submited himself to the Father's will? Luke 22:42

The submission of Jesus to the Father was for the sake of the Father using his body for whatever the Father needed to use it. Jesus would not deny the Father his body as a sacrifice. The HS does not deny the Father or the Son use of his essence either. So the submission that the members of the trinity show towards each other is simply the allowing of the other to use each other. In that sense i suppose the husband and wife example works better, the husband does not deny the wife his body nor does the wife deny the husband her body. In spiritual terms i suppose you can say none of the members of the trinity act as an island although they are capable of it but because they love each other perfectly they look out for each others interest never their own.

Do you believe there is a God Almighty in the Trinity? Do you believe that Jesus had a God, despite as you believe, that he was God? If they are co-equal, was Jesus under a headship arrangement? And if so, what does that mean?

Jesus calls himself God almighty in the book of Revelation. Jesus had a God yes, he is also God. They are of the same kind. The way that the Father is a God to Jesus is not the same way the Father is a god towards us. The Father loves us in a self-sacrificing way, as a demonstration of his mercy and kindness. The Father does not love the son in a way that demonstrates mercy towards him, since the son is in no need for mercy, he had never done anything wrong.

The same is true when Jesus called God his father. God the Father is not a father towards us like he is a father towards Jesus. God the Father never needed to discipline Jesus since he had done no wrong. God the Father never needed to teach Jesus anything since Jesus IS the wisdom of God.

In the trinity, who would you say was the creator? The Father or the Son? Or the Holfy Spirit?

All three. The Father used the Son to create, the son used the HS to create. (HS was hovering over the surface of the deep)

In addition to those points, what form of worship did the Jews of the OT have?

I am not sure i understand the question, will you mind rephrasing it?

 

[Youtellme]

I am not sure i understand the question, will you mind rephrasing it?

I'll come back to you other points later. What I meant was, were the Jews of the Old Testament strict monotheists?

 

[Youtellme]

Jesus calls himself God almighty in the book of Revelation.

If you are refering to the Alpha and the Omega, there appears to be some debate as to who exactly is speaking in the verses where that expression occurs. It can't be said for definite if Jesus said that or God.
Alpha and Omega - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jesus had a God yes, he is also God. They are of the same kind.
The way that the Father is a God to Jesus is not the same way the Father is a god towards us.

At John 20:17 when Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
How do you suppose his listners understood Jesus' relationship with the Father? Jesus clearly put himself on the same level of relationship with his Father as that of his listners. His Father and God was the same as his listner's.

Also, as nowhere in the entire Bible does Jesus explicitly say that he is God, then the instances where it may be implied that he is God, must also be taken with the possiblilty of another explanation, in that he is not God. He says he is from heaven and divine etc, but not that he is God himself.

He is second in command to God the/his Father. After all, it was God the Father who gave everything to Jesus. This means that there was a time where Jesus had nothing or at least not what the Father had. This makes it impossible for Jesus to have always have been on a par with the Father. We see that in so many scriptures. They are not co-equal. If Jesus had everything the father had then that would go for knowledge and understanding too. And I'm sure you know that no one knows of the last hour but the Father.

 

[outhouse]

jesus divinity was discussed in great detail in 325ad at the council of nicea. This is where the current dogma came from.

the fact they had to debate about it centurys after his death means no one knows.


Trinity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

this sums up what your original question asked

Saying that God exists as three persons but is one God means that God the Son and God the Holy Spirit have exactly the same nature or being as God the Father in every way


looking at this will help your understanding

Shield of the Trinity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Youtellme]

jesus divinity was discussed in great detail in 325ad at the council of nicea. This is where the current dogma came from.

the fact they had to debate about it centurys after his death means no one knows.


Trinity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

this sums up what your original question asked

Saying that God exists as three persons but is one God means that God the Son and God the Holy Spirit have exactly the same nature or being as God the Father in every way


looking at this will help your understanding

Shield of the Trinity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thanks for those links. I am aware what the trinity doctrine is. And on your first point, this is correct. It's where the current dogma comes from. What this also means it that for centuries before that, the Jews were accidently worshipping one God, YHWH...after all, that is what the first of the Ten Commandments demanded.

But, yeah, like I said, thanks for the links. However, I would still like Heneni to reply to my previous posts.

 

[Heneni]

How do you suppose his listners understood Jesus' relationship with the Father? Jesus clearly put himself on the same level of relationship with his Father as that of his listners. His Father and God was the same as his listner's.

Jesus did not put himself on the same level of relationship with his Father as that of his listeners. If that was his intention he would have said 'our God and our Father'. He didnt. He made a distinction, he said 'my God and your God, my Father and your Father'. He didnt put himself on the same playingfield as them.

When Jesus taught his disciples how to pray he told THEM to pray like this 'OUR father which are in heaven'

Now if Jesus thought he was on the same level as his disciples then Jesus would have prayed the same prayer, asking 'our' Father to forgive his (Jesus's) sins as he forgives those who sin against him. Clearly you can see why Jesus did not say 'our God and our Father', but made a distinction by saying 'My God and your God, my Father and your Father'

heneni

 

[Youtellme]

Jesus did not put himself on the same level of relationship with his Father as that of his listeners. If that was his intention he would have said 'our God and our Father'. He didnt. He made a distinction, he said 'my God and your God, my Father and your Father'. He didnt put himself on the same playingfield as them.

When Jesus taught his disciples how to pray he told THEM to pray like this 'OUR father which are in heaven'

Now if Jesus thought he was on the same level as his disciples then Jesus would have prayed the same prayer, asking 'our' Father to forgive his (Jesus's) sins as he forgives those who sin against him. Clearly you can see why Jesus did not say 'our God and our Father', but made a distinction by saying 'My God and your God, my Father and your Father'

heneni

My point is, Jesus said he had a God. What does that means, to have a God?

Also, do you get the feeling that Jesus was inferior to the Father in any way or sense?

And I'd just like to add two more questions. Do you agree that Isaiah 53 is a messianic prophecy and that Yaweh or Jehovah of the OT is Jesus of the NT?

Finally you could answer my other points from my other post too when you get the time. Thanks