Desert Snake
Veteran Member
This would mean that Yochanan, is specifically talking about Jesus, in Yisroel, in verses like John 1:18
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Does Jesus literally transmute, into the Abba, after ascencion, or, does Jesus, maintain as Jesus?
- Thread starter Desert Snake
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BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
It is a heresy, speaking biblically, to say that Father and Son are One person/personality, when God is triune, three in One.
74x12
Well-Known Member
Jesus came forth from the Abba and goes back to the Abba. In other words God sent His Spirit to inhabit the human form and when He ascends on high: Jesus fills all things. So Jesus returns back to what He was: the most High God. (Ephesians 4:10)
That doesn't mean He replaces God, but as He was already God: He returns to God and God now has taken on the form, the power of the Son of man. That is God takes on our nature. He does so for a good reason. To save us.
But the Son of man is not finished. He still has work to do. He must reign on the right hand of all power until all His enemies are placed under His human feet. It must be a human being that faces and defeats all of humanities enemies. Otherwise there is no Overcomer so there is no redemption for us. Anyway, once He is finished; then He will deliver the kingdom up to the Father. It will restored and whole and complete with Jesus at it's head.
In other words the Son of man(that is the humanity of Christ) must reconcile all things to God. Once He accomplishes this; then His work is finished.
But, yes He is one with the Father. The distinction is between human and divine natures. Not between separate persons.
74x12
Well-Known Member
Show us triune form in the scriptures; rather than your creeds.
Etritonakin
Well-Known Member
Bodies/forms are somewhat irrelevant.
The fact that they refer to /address each other as separate (in personhood/personality), but are one (in agreement, etc.) is most important.
Christ was also Melchizedek, I AM, The Word, the being who showed Moses the back parts of his glorious body (in which he will also return -standing on the cloven mount of olives) -a pillar of fire and smoke -so he is always himself -the Father is always himself -no matter in which form they are represented, or by which form they act at any time.
Technically, everyone is made of the same whole -and are really only separated logically into selves.
John 14:20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
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BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
Show us triune form in the scriptures; rather than your creeds.
You mean like when Christ was baptized in water, and people heard the Father's voice speaking, while the Spirit descended as a dove upon Christ?
74x12
Well-Known Member
Where does it say it was the Father's voice particularly? If we assume the trinity doctrine is true then we don't know who was talking of the three persons. We know for sure that there was a voice from heaven and that the Spirit descended on Him.
It was the holy Spirit who literally fathered Jesus as we see in Matthew 1:18. So the holy Spirit is the Father. We find this again to be true in Matthew 10:20. The holy Spirit here is called the Spirit of your Father by Jesus. So the holy Spirit is not a distinct person from the Father. The Father is a Spirit. (John 4:24) and the Father is holy. (1 Peter 1:16) So the holy Spirit is God the Father's Spirit.
So it could have been the Spirit speaking. Since you have three distinct persons it's hard to know which one is talking. I don't have that problem.
The fact is God is omnipresent. Not limited to one place at one time. So of course He was in heaven, on earth and anywhere He wants.
Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord. (Jeremiah 23:24)
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Show me where that describes all three as being part of a single substance.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
Where does it say it was the Father's voice particularly? If we assume the trinity doctrine is true then we don't know who was talking of the three persons. We know for sure that there was a voice from heaven and that the Spirit descended on Him.
It was the holy Spirit who literally fathered Jesus as we see in Matthew 1:18. So the holy Spirit is the Father. We find this again to be true in Matthew 10:20. The holy Spirit here is called the Spirit of your Father by Jesus. So the holy Spirit is not a distinct person from the Father. The Father is a Spirit. (John 4:24) and the Father is holy. (1 Peter 1:16) So the holy Spirit is God the Father's Spirit.
So it could have been the Spirit speaking. Since you have three distinct persons it's hard to know which one is talking. I don't have that problem.
The fact is God is omnipresent. Not limited to one place at one time. So of course He was in heaven, on earth and anywhere He wants.
Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord. (Jeremiah 23:24)
The Father's voice is heard from the transfiguration also.
You are confirming my point, God is triune (three as one) and not three persons and not modalist.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
God is immutable, one, echad, a plural oneness in the Hebrew. Do you believe in a trinity, tri-unity, three gods or one or more than three? Sorry, I don't know what you believe.
74x12
Well-Known Member
Okay, well explain your view of God then. How is He triune if not in persons?
The trinity is that God is three in one. Or three distinct persons but one God. So the Father is not the Son, the holy Spirit is not the Father. etc. Yet they are one God.
I don't believe it makes sense. I believe God is one person and one God.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Define "plural oneness" for me and I'll probably be better able to answer your question.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
The Hebrew word, "echad", for an example, means "plural oneness" and is used in the Bible both for God and a married couple. My wife and I are one flesh. How? For one example, where we engage in intimacy and are closer as we two than with any other humans...
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
Thanks! The Hebrew word "echad" means "plural oneness" and is used in the OT both for God and a married couple, who are closer, more "one" than with any other beings...
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Okay, so a "plural oneness" would require two distinct individuals who are "one" in some way other than the physical. Right? I'm assuming that you and your wife are not literally "one flesh" and that you retain your unique identities while having a "oneness" that unities you in a closeness that is something other than physical.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
Certainly, although if I take three batches of water and pour them together, I think that's closer to the spiritual composition of God, though part of God is now in Christ's body...
74x12
Well-Known Member
The word echad is the Hebrew numeral 1. It means literally "united" or in use as a numeral: one. So it could be numerically one person and it could grammatically be a unity of persons. Suffice to say the Hebrew word echad certainly doesn't prove the trinity doctrine.
In Deuteronomy 6:4 God is making the point that they should only have one God.
Respectfully, I think you're seeing plural persons where it's just plural titles.
For example we could argue that Yeshua Himself is more than one person. He's a lion, a lamb, a high priest offering the Lamb(himself). He's also the temple that the offering is made in. He's not just the Lamb but the Shepherd. I could even go on mentioning Yeshua's many Biblical titles to prove that Yeshua is one yet many distinct persons.
These are all certainly "distinct" but they are manifestations or revelations of the same person: Yeshua.
That's where I think trinitarians get it wrong. They are seeing "distinct" manifestations but that doesn't prove God is more than one person.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I don't see how three batches of water poured together could possibly still be thought of as three batches of water. They'd immediately all be part of one new batch and would completely lose their identities.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
Not being Jewish, like me, you are likely unaware that Rambam distinguished Judaism centuries ago by saying our monotheist faith is based on the fact that "Ha Shem made a mistake using echad, plural oneness, for G_d, and not yachid, singularity".
You should research online echad and you should also consider (as I've already written) that God is echad and a married man and a woman are echad. Both testaments contain trinitarian or triune statements of God and in Deut 6:4, it's "Hear, Oh Israel! The Lord our God is a plural oneness!" and Rambam, centuries after the NT, redefined Judaism away from plural oneness of God. As a Jew, these were intense issues for me before and after conversion to Christianity.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
If it helps, one batch of water that is poured into three containers, but I thought you were going to help me understand your perspective on this stuff?