Does Karma Exist

[Draupadi]

Don't get me wrong guys. I am not trying to be self-righteous here. I have seen my parents going to great lengths for our relatives. Not only now they deny it, a few even tries to harm us. But they are living a happy life and we the reverse.

Gods certainly punish us. Otherwise the Scriptures wouldn't say such things. Even in Hinduism it is the Gods who write in our fates what punishment or reward we will receive in reincarnation.

Dantas, if people's lives are complex I should also make mine such and stop helping others who couldn't be there for me when I was facing a huge problem, not some everyday minor annoyances like not getting a rubber from someone else when I had lost it.

 

[Runewolf1973]

I definitely believe in reincarnation, but I do not believe in Karma.

 

[Willamena]

Gods certainly punish us. Otherwise the Scriptures wouldn't say such things. Even in Hinduism it is the Gods who write in our fates what punishment or reward we will receive in reincarnation.

That's fine. From my words, you can see that I am an atheist. I was just explaining to you karma as I believe in it.

 

[Draupadi]

Oops, sorry my bad.

 

[Jainarayan]

Even in Hinduism it is the Gods who write in our fates what punishment or reward we will receive in reincarnation.

Well, in that regard I could say... uh, well... how do I put it?

No, the gods do not write any fates or mete out any punishment or reward in this life or any future life.

 

[Willamena]

There is a best way for the world to be, and in behaving well we participate in that way. People misbehave and you cannot control that, but you do control your own piece of the world, you do control how you behave. How you behave is integrally tied to what you believe and how you think: right-thinking entails right-beliefs and right-behavior, no matter what your religious bend.

Learn and practice right-thinking, behave virtuously and you are participating in the best way for the world to be. Everyone is sensitive to the best way the world should be, so in participating you inspire reciprocal behavior. The result will be a properly functioning world.

If someone behaves badly, and if your response is to behave similarly then you are not participating in the best way for the world to be, in accord with your own beliefs and right-thinking. You're not doing your part. That's where karma steps in, because karma is about you and not 'the other.' When you ignore your part, you get confused, you get hurt, and the world gets bent; you do your part and magic happens. The world that was on tilt straightens up and things start to go well again. That's the karma I believe in.

 

[Draupadi]

Well, in that regard I could say... uh, well... how do I put it?

No, the gods do not write any fates or mete out any punishment or reward in this life or any future life.

But in my reincarnation thread someone wrote that God Brahma keeps some deeds to Himself and sends the rest to the next life or something like that. Did I understand wrong Vinayaka? Please feel free to explain.

 

[Jainarayan]

I have not ever read of anything like that. For me, Vishnu (as Krishna, Rama, or Narasimha) is Supreme. In the Bhagavad Gita Krishna mentions that he grants grace and/or moksha under certain circumstances (like remembering him upon our deaths); he mentions that some people's repeated actions from life to life keep them from attaining him, but I don't recall reading that he keeps track of our deeds. Now, there are stories of Yama the god of death and his "bookkeeper" Chitragupta who keep track, but I think those are more mythology and morality stories than anything else.

 

[Vinayaka]

But in my reincarnation thread someone wrote that God Brahma keeps some deeds to Himself and sends the rest to the next life or something like that. Did I understand wrong Vinayaka? Please feel free to explain.

I don't remember, and it wouldn't have been me that said that.

Mystical Hindus believe that changing bodies is very much like changing clothing. So the effects of one's actions could be held over to another lifetime, or come upon you this lifetime. Water grass, it grows. Give it no water, it dies. Karma is not a thing, per se. We do not have karma, it's just a principle that allows actions to be circular. Gravity is not a thing, it's a scientific principle, like osmosis, combustion, etc.

 

[YmirGF]

I definitely believe in reincarnation, but I do not believe in Karma.

I certainly subscribe to a non-standard variant of reincarnation - of simultaneous incarnations. Karma, just... no.

There is a best way for the world to be

Is there, Patty? By whose definitions? I rather expect Muslims would have a very different version of "best" than Buddhists would, for example.

and in behaving well we participate in that way. People misbehave and you cannot control that, but you do control your own piece of the world, you do control how you behave. How you behave is integrally tied to what you believe and how you think: right-thinking entails right-beliefs and right-behavior, no matter what your religious bend.

This strikes me as being almost Orwellian. There is a mode of "right-thinking"? Seriously? Who decides what that right thinking is? You? Me? Some religious or government agency?

Learn and practice right-thinking, behave virtuously and you are participating in the best way for the world to be.

That sounds spiffy at first glance, but it assumes there is "right-thinking" to begin with. Further to this, what exactly is behaving virtuously and to whose standards? I rather expect that Adolf Hitler thought he was doing the "right thing" as his actions certainly mirrored his published thinking.

Everyone is sensitive to the best way the world should be, so in participating you inspire reciprocal behavior. The result will be a properly functioning world.

Which is proof positive that this happy thinking is pretty far off the mark. It's almost like you are raving on about the Secret and the Power of attraction that Oprah was blubbering on about for a time.

If someone behaves badly, and if your response is to behave similarly then you are not participating in the best way for the world to be, in accord with your own beliefs and right-thinking. You're not doing your part. That's where karma steps in, because karma is about you and not 'the other.' When you ignore your part, you get confused, you get hurt, and the world gets bent; you do your part and magic happens. The world that was on tilt straightens up and things start to go well again. That's the karma I believe in.

Are you interested in a good deal on Purple fairies and Pink Unicorns?

 

[LuisDantas]

Generally speaking, karma goes hand in hand with reincarnation, so if you believe in a single life, it would be difficult to believe in karma it it's usual sense. It certainly wouldn't be obvious ... at all.

That is a common opinion, but I don't see why I should agree with it.

Karma does not aim to give return in any one individual's life, that much is true. But that is no reason to expect reincarnation to happen.

Unless, I suppose, you understand reincarnation in a way that does not come as natural to me.

 

[Vinayaka]

That is a common opinion, but I don't see why I should agree with it.

I don't see why you should agree with it either, Luis. You're an atheist, I'm a Hindu.

Certainly I wasn't suggesting you agree with it. Perhaps you're just too used to people who do suggest you agree with them. Please discard me from that group immediately.

 

[YmirGF]

I don't see why you should agree with it either, Luis. You're an atheist, I'm a Hindu.

Certainly I wasn't suggesting you agree with it. Perhaps you're just too used to people who do suggest you agree with them. Please discard me from that group immediately.

Hehe. I'm usually surprised when people agree with me. I simply don't expect it.

 

[Willamena]

Is there, Patty? By whose definitions? I rather expect Muslims would have a very different version of "best" than Buddhists would, for example.

Any.

This strikes me as being almost Orwellian. There is a mode of "right-thinking"? Seriously? Who decides what that right thinking is? You? Me? Some religious or government agency?

It's more Kong Qiu, actually. We each "decide" what is right-thinking because we are each sensitive to the best way that the world should be.

That sounds spiffy at first glance, but it assumes there is "right-thinking" to begin with. Further to this, what exactly is behaving virtuously and to whose standards? I rather expect that Adolf Hitler thought he was doing the "right thing" as his actions certainly mirrored his published thinking.

Behaving virtuously is behaving in accord with your beliefs. That you have beliefs at all, I guess, would be the "standard" (if you insist that there be one).

I have no doubt that Adolf Hitler, being human, engaged in virtuous behavior. We all do to some extent.

Which is proof positive that this happy thinking is pretty far off the mark. It's almost like you are raving on about the Secret and the Power of attraction that Oprah was blubbering on about for a time.

I don't know those.

Are you interested in a good deal on Purple fairies and Pink Unicorns?

On occasion.

 

[LuisDantas]

Don't get me wrong guys. I am not trying to be self-righteous here.

I can see that you are not. Please don't worry about that.

I have seen my parents going to great lengths for our relatives. Not only now they deny it, a few even tries to harm us. But they are living a happy life and we the reverse.

I am sorry that happened. While I realize that this is shallow confort, I can only say that odds are good that had they not helped it could have been even worse. But it does depend on a lot of circunstances, not least among them how inclined to be grateful and respectful those relatives were in the first place.

Not trying to be a smart alec or anything, but I will also point out that an important part of the Dharmic skills involves attaining a good judgement of the likely consequences of our actions. It is not unreasonable to guess (since guessing is what I am doing) that your parents may have judged poorly where to spend their efforts in the past.

I am not saying that it is fair. It is not. Karma is not about fairness.

Gods certainly punish us. Otherwise the Scriptures wouldn't say such things. Even in Hinduism it is the Gods who write in our fates what punishment or reward we will receive in reincarnation.

If you say so. I just do not see a reason to believe that it is so, but to each its own. If you can make that work, more power to you.

Dantas, if people's lives are complex I should also make mine such and stop helping others who couldn't be there for me when I was facing a huge problem,

If you have reason to believe that it would be helpful and not lead to further trouble down the road, I guess that yes, then you should.

I just don't have such a reason. Consistently in my experience troubling others is not helpful to me, or to anyone really.

Maybe I am just poor at perceiving such things. I have been suspected of worse.

not some everyday minor annoyances like not getting a rubber from someone else when I had lost it.

Minor gestures are of course indeed minor and do not account for much.

All the same, they are still helpful in training oneself to be attuned to virtuous behavior and being used to them. It can really make a difference in the long run.

 

[LuisDantas]

I don't see why you should agree with it either, Luis. You're an atheist, I'm a Hindu.

You value that difference a boatload more than I do, though.

Certainly I wasn't suggesting you agree with it. Perhaps you're just too used to people who do suggest you agree with them. Please discard me from that group immediately.

Sorry, Vinayaka, but I am just not strong enough to do that.

 

[Vinayaka]

Hehe. I'm usually surprised when people agree with me. I simply don't expect it.

I agree with this. I'm surprised too.
If we all agreed, I guess there'd be no need for RF.

 

[LuisDantas]

I agree with this. I'm surprised too.
If we all agreed, I guess there'd be no need for RF.

Well, that I won't agree with.

We all have need of validation for one degree or another. And being accepted and understood by others is a precious gift indeed, to the point that even a superficial appearance of those is often worth pursuing.

We should certainly be allowed to disagree, but it is not something that I find worth pursuing.

 

[Vinayaka]

We all have need of validation for one degree or another.

Some far more than others, but that's just my opinion.

 

[LuisDantas]

Some far more than others, but that's just my opinion.

Yep. Mine is, if not above average, probably at least above that of most people I deal with.

That also means that I make more of an effort to understand the perspective of the people I deal with, and that I care perhaps more than they would expect me to when there is a serious disagreement.

That is just how I am, for better or worse. Simply agreeing to disagree is not something that comes easily to me. Has never been. Nor do I even have that as a goal, or particularly approve of it except very grudgingly.