Does language devalue spiritual...

[Unveiled Artist]

You totally miss my point. I have a simple analogy. I remember you love analogies, this is a very easy one. No need to think too much

Your grandmother gave you some costly jewels and you walk in the marketplace. Then you see a jewel thief.
Now you tell me it's a smart move that you go to the jewel thief and show him your jewels?
Because if you don't, it is you being too proud about your jewels?

Spoiler: All replies listed

I just use the definition below. Has nothing to do with pride. Also, IF I know someone gets upset with my story THEN I don't tell, as simple as that.



You totally miss my point. I have a simple analogy. I remember you love analogies, this is a very easy one. No need to think too much

Your grandmother gave you some costly jewels and you walk in the marketplace. Then you see a jewel thief.
Now you tell me that you go to the jewel thief and show him your jewels?
Because if you don't, it is you being too proud about your jewels?

I get what you're saying now. I wouldn't. Though, I never saw the other person as a thief. The analogy assumes that strangers and probably even friends are thieves. Which would, of course, put the jewel owner on guard to anyone he doesn't know and/or trust with what he values. I guess healthy pride would work there. (kind of like the example I gave awhile back of the native american who held no copyrights to his words because they were god's)

I guess, actually, that's a good analogy. Though I don't believe in god, the context is our values are not ours to own. We express (give away) our values by our behavior and speech. We live our values rather than hold on to them. I guess humility would be the opposite of that.

If I met a stranger and he wanted to see my jewels, depending on the context of our conversation, I would show it to him. That doesn't mean I'll give him the jewels. It just means as a human being I trust him to where I feel comfortable sharing a bit about myself and what I value. I would personally consider it having too much pride if I did not trust other people with what I have. Theoretically, it shouldn't really matter. Unfortunately, I was raised in a culture that it does matter. It has its benefits and drawbacks.

I guess I'm the opposite. Spiritual experiences I don't mind sharing since they are a part of my identity and should be expressed by my behavior and speech, but external things like what happened in my childhood and other things that helped me through lessons of who I am today, I tell those I trust. Spiritually I'm more open. Some other things I'm not, mostly practicality among other personal and non-personal factors.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Sometimes I give difficult analogies...

Ha. You're not the only one

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Is the experience of spirituality devalued when put into words?

If so, why and/or how?

I would say only if the function or value of language is misunderstood. Similar to ritual, which has real spiritual significance, if one mistakes "the map for the territory," it can become vapid.

I can't remember who said it, but the function of poetry should go beyond the words--it should induce that shiver up your spine. Spirituality is art: it changes your perspective, hits the emotions, and produces meaning.

EDIT: Just saw Sunstone used the map analogy first. He wins!

 

[Vinayaka]

Also, if it can be expressed in words, does that mean it's no longer a spiritual experience?

It's one thing if it can't be expressed in words. I guess that's the majority opinion. However, once it can be, what happens to it?

People attempt to share, and words are all we really have.

 

[stvdv]

I get what you're saying now. I wouldn't

Glad we understand each other again

Though, I never saw the other person as a thief.

You are right, my analogy was not yet perfect. In my case it was not about stealing, but that the receiver was not ready to receive it

Suppose you have Jewels and you know the other is of the jealous type, or the angry type? Or even a killer (or just wanting to hurt you). It would not be wise to show him. Even Einstein felt not to happy that his inventions were used in the bombs that killed so many people. So if we have certain knowledge, then they are our responsibility. In the case of Einstein it was a huge responsibility.

But even with spirituality it is known that people can end up in psychiatric hospital. Once a man asked me if he could come with me to the Ashram; I knew he was psychological not stable, so I said no. When I came to the Ashram, I asked the officials about this, and they said "you did well, if you bring him, you are fully responsible for him in India; and when not emotional stable, the energy in the Ashram can drive someone even crazy". Once I stayed ca. 3 years in the Ashram and there were ca. 150 foreigners (US+Europe) who ended up in psychiatric hospital in this time, because they could not handle the high energy in the Ashram. I became aware, that it's best to share, if what I share is received well.

If I met a stranger and he wanted to see my jewels, depending on the context of our conversation, I would show it to him. That doesn't mean I'll give him the jewels.

I guess I'm the opposite. Spiritual experiences I don't mind sharing since they are a part of my identity and should be expressed by my behavior and speech, but external things like what happened in my childhood and other things that helped me through lessons of who I am today, I tell those I trust. Spiritually I'm more open. Some other things I'm not, mostly practicality among other personal and non-personal factors.

By nature (from young age), I could not even say no to others. I had to learn this. So, my nature is to share whatever I have, but my common sense and experience tells me now, to not share with just anyone.

And of course it's good to share, if you know it will be used properly. Like with the nuclear bomb it's easy to see, if that would destroy the whole planet, you would not give it to just anyone. You would be very careful. But on a smaller scale it also is important. IF you give your daughter education on boys, you only tell it when the time is right to tell. Not before and not after either

Now that I have read about an Australian pregnant woman being jailed because she put something on facebook, I become even more careful. Because whatever I post on RF will be there forever. I only have 24 hours to remove it. After that it might be there for eternity, for all to read. That is another reason to be careful what to write and when to write it. And this is especially true on soc.media. IF you meet face to face THEN it's much easier and safer to share.

 

[stvdv]

Ha. You're not the only one

You must also have read or heard about Zen Masters who give their students Koans
A Koan is not possible to solve with the mind, and some byte their teeth on it for decades
The Zen Master does not give the solution. I love Koans, and I don't want others to tell me the clue

A well known Koan is "show me the sound of one hand clapping"

 

[MNoBody]

Holding on to pearls sounds like a pride issue, to tell you honestly.

prudence ...not pride.......[but individual responses and reasoning's will vary]

 

[MNoBody]

language, without empathy is void of meaning, and caters to individual interpretations.
Look how well that has served our species for, well...all of recorded history, up to our present situation.....lovely bit of chaos humans keep cooking up...never seem to learn the lesson of shared empathic perspective.

 

[Windwalker]

Words charged with and inspired by Truth to tell of spiritual experiences have a special power to uplift or enlighten. Their value will not be diminished for the speaker or writer by sharing them; likewise, their value as a shared narrative will be determined strictly by the hearer or reader.

That said, I believe it was Jesus who cautioned devotees to use discernment when relating their experiences. "Thou shall not cast thy pearls before swine," he said (and Masters of all religions say the equivalent). "Swine" are folks (temporarily) enveloped by such a thick veil of spiritual ignorance that it would be like shouting at a deaf person. Rude and unhelpful.

I think there is another reason as well that we need to be cautious about talking about them. If it becomes part of our narrative about ourselves, it's a trap for the ego. If the ego is still being addressed, spiritually speaking, it's got a lot of power yet to sneak back in unawares, behind the curtain of spirituality. At a certain point, when the ego is much quieter and less a constant nuisance, then I'd say when you speak, it's because there is a real purpose at the moment. It will be genuine and have that elevated meaning, as you said, because it's responsive to Truth in that moment. Ego is too busy with one eye in the mirror to sense that Truth. When it's quiet, Truth becomes apparent. There is a value in not talking about them, for yourself spiritually.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I think there is another reason as well that we need to be cautious about talking about them. If it becomes part of our narrative about ourselves, it's a trap for the ego. If the ego is still being addressed, spiritually speaking, it's got a lot of power yet to sneak back in unawares, behind the curtain of spirituality. At a certain point, when the ego is much quieter and less a constant nuisance, then I'd say when you speak, it's because there is a real purpose at the moment. It will be genuine and have that elevated meaning, as you said, because it's responsive to Truth in that moment. Ego is too busy with one eye in the mirror to sense that Truth. When it's quiet, Truth becomes apparent. There is a value in not talking about them, for yourself spiritually.

Ah! Ego not pride... Though, when one's ego settles, then sharing wouldn't become an issue for the person sharing. In other words, the value needs to be experienced by the person sharing rather than only when the other appreciates what's shared.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Is the experience of spirituality devalued when put into words?

If so, why and/or how?

Words may be insufficient to describe a spiritual experience, but I don't see how that devalues it in any way.

 

[Ponder This]

Instead of using language to explain what a sunset feeling is, could language be used to express the sunset of what it means to you?

Does accuracy need to be involved in expressing spiritual experiences?

"Need"? Such a tricky word, that one. I'd be careful of him if I were you. He has an agenda, you see, and he often won't tell you what it is until later.

"Accuracy," on the other hand, has a stellar reputation. I'd speak quite highly of him if he would but stop insisting that I exaggerate.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

"Need"? Such a tricky word, that one. I'd be careful of him if I were you. He has an agenda, you see, and he often won't tell you what it is until later.

"Accuracy," on the other hand, has a stellar reputation. I'd speak quite highly of him if he would but stop insisting that I exaggerate.

I missed something. He?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Words may be insufficient to describe a spiritual experience, but I don't see how that devalues it in any way.

I notice once one has words to describe spiritual experiences (that isn't referenced to religious scripture) it's not seen as spiritual. The nature of spiritual messages must be that it can't be said into words, is the gist I get. If it were translated into words, I would say it still would hold its meaning and purpose. Another way to put it is, once you describe god is he no longer god?

 

[MNoBody]

when discussing the emotional, impressionistic side of life,
words are like the banks of the river which define the course the experience goes in.....
at best we talk around the subject, since the movements inside of that nature, we struggle to express our entire lives,
which has given us the works of art and literature and music, etc that we admire the most,
which moves us in ways where we find that words are too coarse a medium to really 'nail it'.

 

[QuestioningMind]

I notice once one has words to describe spiritual experiences (that isn't referenced to religious scripture) it's not seen as spiritual. The nature of spiritual messages must be that it can't be said into words, is the gist I get. If it were translated into words, I would say it still would hold its meaning and purpose. Another way to put it is, once you describe god is he no longer god?

Do you think that if you describe god that god is no longer god? If so, why?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Do you think that if you describe god that god is no longer god? If so, why?

I would think he is god regardless. However, not everyone sees it that way. To describe god in human terms (I guess) may be seen as devaluing god as the mystery (therefore, Greater and Authority etc). Basically, describing him and spiritual experience in human terms undermines god by bringing him down (if one likes) to human level.

I'm not sure of other religions who believe in god. There is still a separation in the mystic vs mundane though when it comes to sharing spiritual experiences verses sharing about the beliefs that brought on those experiences. But nonetheless, I don't see language as devaluing spiritual experiences but other people tend to.

 

[pearl]

Wouldn't the language be meaningful in itself regardless if the other party receives it or not? It's has it's own value.

I guess it would depend on whether or not the 'experience' was one that had value for others. The 'Awe' in the personal experience cannot be passed to another, only what has been gleaned from it. If the chosen language has no personal meaning to another's life it has been devalued.

 

[Sw. Vandana Jyothi]

I guess it would depend on whether or not the 'experience' was one that had value for others. The 'Awe' in the personal experience cannot be passed to another, only what has been gleaned from it. If the chosen language has no personal meaning to another's life it has been devalued.

I thoroughly disagree that just because someone else doesn't understand the value of something, that something loses value. If I hand my baby a gold coin and all it knows to do with it is stick it in its mouth, has the coin lost any value thereby? Of course not. Just as our diamond-like souls are "dirty" with bad choices and are living in the gutter of perpetual desire doesn't mean the diamond has lost its luster. The "dirt" can be "washed" away with confession, repentance, surrender, the various methods prescribed by one's faith.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I guess it would depend on whether or not the 'experience' was one that had value for others. The 'Awe' in the personal experience cannot be passed to another, only what has been gleaned from it. If the chosen language has no personal meaning to another's life it has been devalued.

I guess I'm the opposite. If the chose language has no personal meaning to the person who uses the language, it has no value to that person and wouldn't to the person he or she expresses it to. So, the value of language wouldn't depend on the other person's reception but one's own reception. When that self-reception is valued, then it doesn't matter that others do not accept it. Sharing it is a means onto itself not defined by others. Thus, it becomes personal preference to share rather than based on other people's opinions.