Does mankind have free will or not?

[Sgt. Pepper]

According to the Bible, God is omniscient (Psalm 139:1-6; Isaiah 46:9-10; 1 John 3:20), omnipotent (Psalm 147:5; Job 42:2; Daniel 2:21), and omnipresent (Psalm 139:7-10; Isaiah 40:12; Colossians 1:17). If God has infinite knowledge and wisdom (omniscient) and infinite power (omnipotent), and he is present everywhere simultaneously (omnipresent), then he knew ahead of time that Adam and Eve would fall into temptation with the apple, and they would disobey him. IOW, the fall of humanity was foreknown by God.

If the bible is correct about God's attributes of omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence, then it stands to reason that he knows everything that happened in the past, what happens in the present, and what will happen in the future. The bible also says that God knows our innermost being, and he knew us before we were born (Psalm 139:13-16). Furthermore, if God is all-knowing, then he also knows our every thought and every decision that we have ever made, and the decisions we will make in the future.

If God created Adam and Eve with the full knowledge that they would be tempted by the apple from the Tree of Life, which resulted with them taking a bite of the apple and disobeying God, then why did he hold them responsible for their sin? Furthermore, if God created mankind with the full knowledge of the impending fall into sin, then why are we held responsible for our sins against him?

If everything I've written thus far about God is true, as the bible testifies, then how is it possible for mankind to have free will? If our lives are already predetermined by God, then do we have free will? I'd like to discuss this topic, so I'm looking forward to the replies.

Please note that the content in this post is based on my perspective as an ex-Christian, and it was written with that in mind. It was also written with the initial purpose to discuss the topic of free will with Christians. However, other theists and non-Christians are more than welcome to opine in my thread and share their personal opinions and spiritual beliefs on the content of this post.

 

[Geoff-Allen]

If everything I've written thus far about God is true, as the bible testifies, then how is it possible for mankind to have free will? If our lives are already predetermined by God, then do we have free will? I'd like to discuss this topic, so I'm looking forward to the replies.

Me too!

It sure feels like we have free will even if many people are fairly predictable in their thinkin & behaviour!

I suppose if there were a simple & convincing answer to the big questions we wouldn't feel compelled to debate them endlessly!

 

[Trailblazer]

Furthermore, if God is all-knowing, then he also knows our every thought and every decision that we have ever made, and the decisions we will make in the future.

If everything I've written thus far about God is true, as the bible testifies, then how is it possible for mankind to have free will? If our lives are already predetermined by God, then do we have free will? I'd like to discuss this topic, so I'm looking forward to the replies.

I am kind of on the run right now so I am only going to give a brief answer.
God is all-knowing, so God knows our every thought and every decision that we have ever made, and the decisions we will make in the future. However, God's knowledge is not what causes us to do what we do. Humans cause things to happen by the free will choices they make and the actions that ensue.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

Question.—If God has knowledge of an action which will be performed by someone, and it has been written on the Tablet of Fate, is it possible to resist it?

Answer.—The foreknowledge of a thing is not the cause of its realization; for the essential knowledge of God surrounds, in the same way, the realities of things, before as well as after their existence, and it does not become the cause of their existence. It is a perfection of God.......
Some Answered Questions, p. 138

Whatever we do not freely choose can be considered our predetermined fate, but everything is not predetermined by God. Many things are left for us to choose freely.

This is a very deep subject that deserves a lot of attention.

I have my own definition of free will because I have discussed this so many times:

Free will is simply the will/ability to make choices based upon our desires and preferences. Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. How free they are varies with the situation. Certainly what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints such as capability and opportunity. However, we can make choices as otherwise we would just be like pre-programmed robots. For example, people choose to get married, go to college, or have children, since nobody chooses for them.

 

[Nakosis]

According to the Bible, God is omniscient (Psalm 139:1-6; Isaiah 46:9-10; 1 John 3:20), omnipotent (Psalm 147:5; Job 42:2; Daniel 2:21), and omnipresent (Psalm 139:7-10; Isaiah 40:12; Colossians 1:17). If God has infinite knowledge and wisdom (omniscient) and infinite power (omnipotent), and he is present everywhere simultaneously (omnipresent), then he knew ahead of time that Adam and Eve would fall into temptation with the apple, and they would disobey him. IOW, the fall of humanity was foreknown by God.

If the bible is correct about God's attributes of omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence, then it stands to reason that he knows everything that happened in the past, what happens in the present, and what will happen in the future. The bible also says that God knows our innermost being, and he knew us before we were born (Psalm 139:13-16). Furthermore, if God is all-knowing, then he also knows our every thought and every decision that we have ever made, and the decisions we will make in the future.

If God created Adam and Eve with the full knowledge that they would be tempted by the apple from the Tree of Life, which resulted with them taking a bite of the apple and disobeying God, then why did he hold them responsible for their sin? Furthermore, if God created mankind with the full knowledge of the impending fall into sin, then why are we held responsible for our sins against him?

If everything I've written thus far about God is true, as the bible testifies, then how is it possible for mankind to have free will? If our lives are already predetermined by God, then do we have free will? I'd like to discuss this topic, so I'm looking forward to the replies.

Please note that the content in this post is based on my perspective as an ex-Christian, and it was written with that in mind. It was also written with the initial purpose to discuss the topic of free will with Christians. However, other theists and non-Christians are more than welcome to opine in my thread and share their personal opinions and spiritual beliefs on the content of this post.

Ok, lets say I knew that tomorrow at 6pm I knew that when I got home, I'd open the door and knew my wife would be sitting on the couch watching FOX news. (omniscient)
That I was able to somehow be aware of everything she did during the day. (omnipresent)
And, could have at anytime prevented this from happening, by disconnecting the cable, but didn't. (omnipotent)

How does any of this take away from her ability to freely choose her actions?

 

[Secret Chief]

According to the Bible, God is omniscient (Psalm 139:1-6; Isaiah 46:9-10; 1 John 3:20), omnipotent (Psalm 147:5; Job 42:2; Daniel 2:21), and omnipresent (Psalm 139:7-10; Isaiah 40:12; Colossians 1:17). If God has infinite knowledge and wisdom (omniscient) and infinite power (omnipotent), and he is present everywhere simultaneously (omnipresent), then he knew ahead of time that Adam and Eve would fall into temptation with the apple, and they would disobey him. IOW, the fall of humanity was foreknown by God.

If the bible is correct about God's attributes of omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence, then it stands to reason that he knows everything that happened in the past, what happens in the present, and what will happen in the future. The bible also says that God knows our innermost being, and he knew us before we were born (Psalm 139:13-16). Furthermore, if God is all-knowing, then he also knows our every thought and every decision that we have ever made, and the decisions we will make in the future.

If God created Adam and Eve with the full knowledge that they would be tempted by the apple from the Tree of Life, which resulted with them taking a bite of the apple and disobeying God, then why did he hold them responsible for their sin? Furthermore, if God created mankind with the full knowledge of the impending fall into sin, then why are we held responsible for our sins against him?

If everything I've written thus far about God is true, as the bible testifies, then how is it possible for mankind to have free will? If our lives are already predetermined by God, then do we have free will? I'd like to discuss this topic, so I'm looking forward to the replies.

Please note that the content in this post is based on my perspective as an ex-Christian, and it was written with that in mind. It was also written with the initial purpose to discuss the topic of free will with Christians. However, other theists and non-Christians are more than welcome to opine in my thread and share their personal opinions and spiritual beliefs on the content of this post.

I live as if there is.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Ok, lets say I knew that tomorrow at 6pm I knew that when I got home, I'd open the door and knew my wife would be sitting on the couch watching FOX news. (omniscient)
That I was able to somehow be aware of everything she did during the day. (omnipresent)
And, could have at anytime prevented this from happening, by disconnecting the cable, but didn't. (omnipotent)

How does any of this take away from her ability to freely choose her actions?

Let's say that tomorrow at 6 PM, you arrive home, open the door, and you see that your wife isn't sitting on the cough watching FOX News. She's sitting in the armchair instead, and she's watching another newscast because she decided on a whim that she wanted to watch something different. You thought you knew what she would be up to when you got home, but she did something that you weren't expecting her to do. She has changed her routine on a whim, which may or may not be unusual for her. She did something unpredictable that catches you off guard and surprises you, because that's not what she normally does during her day.

It's entirely possible that your wife changed her routine during the day because she was bored with it, or she thought of an easier way to accomplish her daily goals in a shorter amount of time. She did something unusual that you didn't foresee happening.

Sure, you could disconnect the cable, but maybe your wife decided to go over to your neighbor's house next door and watched FOX News, because she was upset that you disconnected the cable, and she didn't tell you what she was doing because she was mad.

And lastly, are you implying that your wife has never done anything that you weren't able to predict since you've known her? She's never changed her mind about how she goes about her day? She's never changed her mind about what clothes she should wear?

I have seven children, and I know each one of them pretty well. I know their daily routines, and I know their personal habits and mannerisms. But every once in a while, one of my children will do something that I didn't anticipate, and it catches me off guard and surprises me. And whenever that happens, I would say to my son or daughter, "That doesn't sound like something you'd do," and their usual answer is, "Yeah, I know, Mom. But I felt like I was stuck in a rut, and I wanted to try something different."

If God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and ever-present, then it isn't likely in the least that a human being can change his or her daily habit, without God knowing about it ahead of time. Therefore, it's simply not possible for a person to ever catch an all-knowing God off guard, which causes him to say, "Well, I never saw that one coming!" or "I had no idea that [insert a name] would ever change her mind about taking the exciting new job she was offered. I felt sure she would jump at the chance to earn more money."

So, you see, your scenario with your wife isn't foolproof, because it's possible for people to do something that's unpredictable on a whim. A person can change their mind without telling anyone else right away, or they'll change their mind quickly when presented with another option. For instance, my oldest son has taken the same route to work every single day since he started his job, but a fellow employee told him of an easier route that he wasn't aware of, and now he drives this new route to work every day. My son is normally a creature of habit, but he changed his mind about which route he'll take to work because the new route is faster. It's very rare for my son to divert from his usual daily routine and habits, so, I was surprised when he told me he is driving a new route.

 

[1213]

...
If God created Adam and Eve with the full knowledge that they would be tempted by the apple from the Tree of Life, which resulted with them taking a bite of the apple and disobeying God, then why did he hold them responsible for their sin? Furthermore, if God created mankind with the full knowledge of the impending fall into sin, then why are we held responsible for our sins against him?

Why not? It was their own choice, no one forced them to do it.

...If everything I've written thus far about God is true, as the bible testifies, then how is it possible for mankind to have free will? If our lives are already predetermined by God, then do we have free will?

If I know what you will answer to this, have I determined your answer? Have I now somehow revoked your free will?

I don’t think so. I have understood free will means person is free to want what ever he wants. It is not the same as being omnipotent and also able to do everything one wants.

If God knows us truly, He knows what we will choose freely and therefore He can know the future.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Why not? It was their own choice, no one forced them to do it.

It seems that we're at an impasse, because we don't agree on whether Adam and Eve had a choice or not.

If I know what you will answer to this, have I determined your answer? Have I now somehow revoked your free will?

But you don't know how I would ask that question, because you don't have infinite knowledge and infinite power. The way I see it, if my life has been predetermined by God, then I'm behaving in the exact manner that he chose for me before I was even born.

I'm also reacting to the world as he wants me to react to it. If my life has been preprogrammed by God, then I'm doing exactly what he wants me to do, and I don't have a choice. Anyway, I explained my thoughts on this topic better in my previous post here.

I
I don’t think so. I have understood free will means person is free to want what ever he wants. It is not the same as being omnipotent and also able to do everything one wants.

If God knows us truly, He knows what we will choose freely and therefore He can know the future.

Personally, I don't believe that mankind has free will, but I'm open to hearing someone else's thoughts on the subject.

 

[1213]

...The way I see it, if my life has been predetermined by God, then I'm behaving in the exact manner that he chose for me before I was even born.
...
Personally, I don't believe that mankind has free will, but I'm open to hearing someone else's thoughts on the subject.

Ok, I think that is interesting. Maybe you are doing only what was programmed. I am not, I have free will and I am responsible for every action I do.

 

[Trailblazer]

The way I see it, if my life has been predetermined by God, then I'm behaving in the exact manner that he chose for me before I was even born.

Why do you think that your life has been predetermined by God?
That would mean you were nothing but a robot, God's robot. Why would God want robots?
What would be the purpose of God putting us here on earth if not to learn and grow? If we cannot make choices that are our own how can we learn and grow?

I'm also reacting to the world as he wants me to react to it. If my life has been preprogrammed by God, then I'm doing exactly what he wants me to do, and I don't have a choice.

Aren't you aware when you are making a choice to do something that you made the choice? I am.
Does it make sense that you are doing exactly what God wants you to do if you do not even believe in God?
To carry that further, if you are preprogrammed by God that would mean everyone is, so why would God program atheists to NOT believe in Him?

Personally, I don't believe that mankind has free will, but I'm open to hearing someone else's thoughts on the subject.

There is no doubt that humans have free will although it is circumscribed so we are not free to do anything we want to do. However, we can make choices. You chose to abdicate belief in Christianity for example.

 

[Trailblazer]

Ok, I think that is interesting. Maybe you are doing only what was programmed. I am not, I have free will and I am responsible for every action I do.

Humans could never be held accountable in courts of law if they had no free will.
They cannot go into court and say "Judge, I am not responsible because God programmed me to murder my wife!"

 

[night912]

Why not? It was their own choice, no one forced them to do it.

God did.

If I know what you will answer to this, have I determined your answer?

Are you god?

Have I now somehow revoked your free will?

You never had free will to begin with. And this is the usual intellectually dishonest answer that those who accepts all that's mentioned in the OP. Why? Because you are ignoring the part where the all knowing god is also the creator.

If I knew that you will take route A instead of route B five minutes after you are created, then I decided to create you. Five minutes later, you took route A. This demonstrates that you didn't have a choice but to take the route that I created you to take. You never had free will to begin with because I am the one who made all those decisions for you before you were even created, regardless of whether or not you realized it.

I don’t think so. I have understood free will means person is free to want what ever he wants. It is not the same as being omnipotent and also able to do everything one wants.

I created you to want all those things that you wanted, currently want and will want in the future. So, no free will for you.

If God knows us truly, He knows what we will choose freely and therefore He can know the future.

Wrong. All it means is that god knows that you will do exactly what he created you to do.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If God created Adam and Eve with the full knowledge that they would be tempted by the apple from the Tree of Life, which resulted with them taking a bite of the apple and disobeying God, then why did he hold them responsible for their sin?

That is the same as asking "Why did G-d create human beings if He knew they were going to sin?"

Knowing that we are imperfect does not remove our accountability. That is the whole point, surely?

Do you think that we should not be held accountable for our misdemeanours if G-d didn't exist?
Bad argument !

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Are you god?

This is where the counterarguments to my OP fall completely flat, because the persons who wrote the counter posts aren't gods with infinite power and infinite wisdom, and they can't be in all places simultaneously. As you can see, I demonstrated how these counterarguments fall flat in my replies in post #6 and post #8. In reality, these people can't possibly know with 100% certainty what I will say or what I will think or what I will do. All they can do is give it their best guess, and they could be mistaken.

The truth is, their knowledge, their wisdom, their physical strength, and their personal presence are all limited by their humanity. However, that's not the case with God, who has infinite knowledge, infinite power, and he is in all places simultaneously. He knows the past, the present, and the future. The people arguing against my OP don't possess these divine attributes. They aren't gods.

You never had free will to begin with. And this is the usual intellectually dishonest answer that those who accepts all that's mentioned in the OP. Why? Because you are ignoring the part where the all knowing god is also the creator.

If I knew that you will take route A instead of route B five minutes after you are created, then I decided to create you. Five minutes later, you took route A. This demonstrates that you didn't have a choice but to take the route that I created you to take. You never had free will to begin with because I am the one who made all those decisions for you before you were even created, regardless of whether or not you realized it.

I created you to want all those things that you wanted, currently want and will want in the future. So, no free will for you.

Wrong. All it means is that god knows that you will do exactly what he created you to do.

Well said.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If I knew that you will take route A instead of route B five minutes after you are created, then I decided to create you. Five minutes later, you took route A. This demonstrates that you didn't have a choice but to take the route that I created you to take..

Not this nonsense again..

G-d does not force anybody to make a choice.
He simply knows which choice we will take.
It is not the same thing as G-d just watching a show of His own making.
Why would G-d want to do that? It is absurd.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

I no longer believe in free will. I have no choice lol.

 

[1213]

...
Wrong. All it means is that god knows that you will do exactly what he created you to do.

Sorry, I have no good reason to believe anything that you say. I know that I have free will.

 

[Trailblazer]

I no longer believe in free will. I have no choice lol.

You have a choice because you chose to not believe in free will lol.

 

[night912]

Not this nonsense again..

G-d does not force anybody to make a choice.
He simply knows which choice we will take.
It is not the same thing as G-d just watching a show of His own making.
Why would G-d want to do that? It is absurd.

Actually, it's exactly like that if he's all knowing and the creator.

What he wants is irrelevant.

 

[night912]

Sorry, I have no good reason to believe anything that you say. I know that I have free will.

You having no good reason to believe is irrelevant.