Does morality come from the scriptures ?

[TheKnight]

Poor translations but, nevertheless, it's a nice enough laundry list. It's also irrelevant to the thread. Get back to me when you can do better.

You needn't believe my statement that Morality comes from God if you don't want to.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

You needn't believe my statement that Morality comes from God if you don't want to.

What I don't believe is that you are a credible source worthy of consideration.

 

[Fortunato]

"See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil"~Deut 30:15.

"In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth"~Genesis 1:1

"I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things."~Isaiah 45:7

Sorry to jump into the middle of your conversation, but how do the statements you provided apply at all to the subject of morality?

 

[TheKnight]

Sorry to jump into the middle of your conversation, but how do the statements you provided apply at all to the subject of morality?

Morality is the definition or differentiation of good and evil. In Deut 30:15 God says "See I set before you this day life and good, death and evil." In essence, the Law that He gives is the difference between good and evil, or morality. Isaiah 45:7 is similar in that line of thought.

Genesis 1:1 is the idea that God created the world and the heavens. In essence, God created/creates everything. Including morality....in essence Morality comes from God.

 

[Fortunato]

Morality is the definition or differentiation of good and evil. In Deut 30:15 God says "See I set before you this day life and good, death and evil." In essence, the Law that He gives is the difference between good and evil, or morality. Isaiah 45:7 is similar in that line of thought.

Genesis 1:1 is the idea that God created the world and the heavens. In essence, God created/creates everything. Including morality....in essence Morality comes from God.

Thanks for explaining that. I at first thought you were trying to quote morals, but rereading your original post, you're just responding to Jayhawker Soule's request for citations about the source of morality (not the actual moral laws themselves). Sorry about the mix-up.

 

[TheKnight]

Thanks for explaining that. I at first thought you were trying to quote morals, but rereading your original post, you're just responding to Jayhawker Soule's request for citations about the source of morality (not the actual moral laws themselves). Sorry about the mix-up.

No problem. I much prefer you ask for clarification than make an incorrect assumption.

 

[Kurt31416]

Morality comes from the Golden Rule.

Once there was a gentile who came before Shammai, and said to him: "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot. Shammai pushed him aside with the measuring stick he was holding. The same fellow came before Hillel, and Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it." Babylonian Talmud, Shabbat 31a

His disciples questioned him and said, "How should we fast and how should we pray, and how should we do charitable deeds and what food law should we observe?"
Jesus said, "Do not lie and that which you hate, do not do because everything is evident before the truth. For there is nothing hidden that will not be made clear." P.Oxy654/Thomas 6

 

[Commoner]

Genesis 1:1 is the idea that God created the world and the heavens. In essence, God created/creates everything. Including morality....in essence Morality comes from God.

Then are your choices your own, or are they "just" gods will? If you think everything comes from god...

 

[TheKnight]

Then are your choices your own, or are they "just" gods will?

I can choose to do what I want. Whether or not I choose to do God's will is entirely up to me.

 

[Commoner]

I can choose to do what I want. Whether or not I choose to do God's will is entirely up to me.

Is it really? Are you sure it's not god typing these letters for you. If he creates everything, does he not also shape your future?

 

[ThereIsNoSpoon]

It's not a matter of my religion discerning anything. I believe that God revealed what He wants of us. For instance, at least with the 613 commandments, a person would not be able to logically determine that it is morally right for a Jew to celebrate Shabbat. Or that it is morally right for a person to study Torah. Or tha it is morally wrong for a person to engage in sex acts with person(s) of the same sex.

I do not know which 613 commandmends you are referring to.
But as for your examples i see no sense in claiming that it carries ANY morality in it (be it good or evil) to celebrate Shabbat. Nor do i think it is a moral question whether one studies Torah or not.
And definetly i do not see it as morally wrong for a person to engage in homosexual acts provided the partners are consenting to it.
I see it rather the opposite way around. I think it is morally bad to judge others that engage in acts which are not harmfull to themselves or others.

You might see this differently. And you might think this is because God gave you something in addition to others. I would disagree however.

 

[Kerr]

Morally inferior? Such terms do not exist in my vernacular. Maybe in a paradigm where it is necessary to label people within a dichotomy such terminology would be appropriate. However it is not in the paradigm of someone who follows Torah.

You stated that only through God can someone reach a complete morality, which means that someone who does not believe in God cannot, by your logic, do that. In a way, that is saying people that do not believe in God are morally inferior then those who do, since it assumes they do not and cannot reach a complete morality. However, this is a matter of wording, so I will rephrase it.

Basically, no matter how an atheist acts they cannot reach the same form of complete morality that someone that believes in God can achieve?

 

[TheKnight]

I do not know which 613 commandmends you are referring to.
But as for your examples i see no sense in claiming that it carries ANY morality in it (be it good or evil) to celebrate Shabbat. Nor do i think it is a moral question whether one studies Torah or not.
And definetly i do not see it as morally wrong for a person to engage in homosexual acts provided the partners are consenting to it.
I see it rather the opposite way around. I think it is morally bad to judge others that engage in acts which are not harmfull to themselves or others.

You might see this differently. And you might think this is because God gave you something in addition to others. I would disagree however.

I see things such as Shabbat observance, Torah study, and homosexual sex as matters which are morally pertinent to us. And I also know them to be moral matters that most people do not discern in the appropriate moral manner.

In essence, from my standpoint of what morality consists of, a person is not able to completely discern it all. That was my initial point. You asked which parts of morality an Atheist could not discern. I simply listed them...

Of course, this whole discussion is premised by our agreement on what is/isn't moral.

 

[TheKnight]

You stated that only through God can someone reach a complete morality, which means that someone who does not believe in God cannot, by your logic, do that. In a way, that is saying people that do not believe in God are morally inferior then those who do, since it assumes they do not and cannot reach a complete morality. However, this is a matter of wording, so I will rephrase it.

Basically, no matter how an atheist acts they cannot reach the same form of complete morality that someone that believes in God can achieve?

Reach? I didn't say reach, I said know. In the sense of discerning. After all, this thread is about where morality comes from. Or, in other terms, how one discerns morality.

I believe that morality comes from God, and that the only way to complete know what morality consists of is through revelation from God. An Atheist, who does not believe in God, would be unable to know morality completely.

Morally inferior implies that an Atheist is inherently less moral (and I could argue that they are). However, it is obvious (and I don't contest it) that Atheists are just as capable at behaving morally as Theists. So they aren't perfect, no one is. However, their ability to be moral is not any less than the Theist's ability to be moral. In the context of what I'm saying, "morally inferior" doesn't apply.

In answer to your question of whether or not an Atheist can reach the level of morality...they can, but they cannot remain an Atheist and do so because the source of morality (from my perspective) is God and if you don't believe in God then you don't believe in His morality. And any morality you come up with is likely to be different than His.

 

[Kerr]

So you can be perfectly moral, but you cannot know morality completely? What parts cannot be known from an atheist?

 

[Commoner]

In answer to your question of whether or not an Atheist can reach the level of morality...they can, but they cannot remain an Atheist...

Sure, everyone can run as fast as Usain Bolt, they just have to become Usain Bolt (or at least Jamaican). I think that's a load of rubbish. Can you not see how that kind of attitude might seem a bit arrogant?

 

[TheKnight]

So you can be perfectly moral, but you cannot know morality completely? What parts cannot be known from an atheist?

Well, no one can be perfectly moral. An Atheist has the exact same ability as a Theist to be moral. The thing is that an Atheist (or anyone for that matter) cannot discern or figure out morality in its entirety based solely on their logic. The only way to completely discern what is moral is if God reveals what is moral.

Sure, everyone can run as fast as Usain Bolt, they just have to become Usain Bolt (or at least Jamaican). I think that's a load of rubbish. Can you not see how that kind of attitude might seem a bit arrogant?

It's not arrogant. In the system of morality that I adhere to, Atheism is immoral. In fact, it could be argued that Atheism is the most immoral thing. Not only to say you don't believe in any God, but to say that there is no God (there is a difference between the two). How can an Atheist expect to adhere completely to the system of morality that I adhere to when Atheism itself is anathema to that system?

That's my point. If you're hell-bent on being a thief (I am NOT saying Atheists are thieves), how can you expect to be moral if your moral system forbids thievery? Similarly, if there is a moral system which is dependent on God's revealing it, how can an Atheist (who rejects God's existence) expect to be able to adhere to that system completely? The mere fact that they are an Atheist violates the system.

 

[Kerr]

Well, no one can be perfectly moral. An Atheist has the exact same ability as a Theist to be moral. The thing is that an Atheist (or anyone for that matter) cannot discern or figure out morality in its entirety based solely on their logic. The only way to completely discern what is moral is if God reveals what is moral.

I didn´t use perfectly in its literal form, just meant a person who you definatly cannot call immoral. What parts of morality cannot an atheist discern?

 

[TheKnight]

I didn´t use perfectly in its literal form, just meant a person who you definatly cannot call immoral. What parts of morality cannot an atheist discern?

Well I gave examples above. The natural inclination is to say that homosexual sex is just as OK as heterosexual sex. Or that sex before marriage makes sense. Both are logical conclusion, and yet in comparison with morality, they are not moral actions.

An Atheist, that does not believe in a God-given moral system, is not going to discern that homosexual sex is wrong. Or that sex before marriage is wrong. I have yet to meet an Atheist that will say "I have logically concluded that homosexual sex is wrong."

There are other such laws that I could go through....but that would be a long post. I can go through them if you'd like, but I will only do so if you ask.

 

[Commoner]

It's not arrogant. In the system of morality that I adhere to, Atheism is immoral. In fact, it could be argued that Atheism is the most immoral thing. Not only to say you don't believe in any God, but to say that there is no God (there is a difference between the two). How can an Atheist expect to adhere completely to the system of morality that I adhere to when Atheism itself is anathema to that system?

That's my point. If you're hell-bent on being a thief (I am NOT saying Atheists are thieves), how can you expect to be moral if your moral system forbids thievery? Similarly, if there is a moral system which is dependent on God's revealing it, how can an Atheist (who rejects God's existence) expect to be able to adhere to that system completely? The mere fact that they are an Atheist violates the system.

I could very well decide that I find being blond immoral. In the system of morality I adhere to, being blond is immoral. Would you except that? You can't effectively argue something is immoral just because it violates your system of morality. You are arguing for a conclusion that has already been assumed in the premise.

Being an atheist is not an action (like thievery), it is not even a belief, just a lack of one. I can choose my actions (at least most of the time), I cannot choose my beliefs. Would you argue that one can choose one's own beliefs?