Does organized religion miss the whole point about God?

[Squirt]

Where does in scripture does it say that church is a building that we must go to every Sunday and listen to some guy preach? Some guy who is no different or better than I? I can read the Bible anytime I want and praise God anytime I want. Thus eliminating the need for church as society knows it. God tells us in the Bible that if we put our faith in man that man will fail us. But if we put our faith in him (God) we will prosper. I choose God.

So would it be accurate to say that you don't believe the Apostles were given authority that set them apart from everyone else?

 

[Mister_T]

[

nutshell]Christ clearly says his church would be one of authority. Peter received his authority directly from the savior to run His church. The commandments about meeting together often are in the Bible.

Well then another issue comes to mind....what is the true meaning of church? I meet with my Christian friends Once, twice maybe 3 times a week, hang out and talk about God and what he has been doing in our lives. That's church right there. We meet and talk about God.

The purpose of the Church isn't just to preach. It has the authority, given by Christ, to conduct the affairs of his Kingdom.

Last time I checked all those who are in Christ have equal authority. A preacher in a church has no more authority than me. Gimme some scripture to back up the idea that people who are in Christ and affiliate themselves with an organization has more authority than people who are in Christ and do not go to a building every Sunday to particpate in their ritual

 

[Popeyesays]

Well, lets look at the scripture.

Jesus has gathered his apostles and asks them who they think he is. They give the answers they've been hearing from the crowd and tell Jesus some think he's John the Baptist, some Elias, others Jeremiah, etc. Jesus asks, but who do you say that I am and Peter boldly proclaims:

"Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."

After a brief line explaining how Peter knew this, Jesus then says:

"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven..." (See Matthew 16).

Jesus clearly proclaims he is building a church and Peter was given the authority or keys of the kingdom (which to me equals the power to organize and run said church).

My religion teaches that we have this same authority passed from Peter to a modern day prophet and thus, we are the same organization that Christ established when he was on the earth.

And it was Simon Peter that betrayed Christ three times between His arrest and the cock crow the next morning. I have seen it argued and with some justificiation that Jesus comment at this point could equally mean that the power of the church would be raised upon the shifting-sand foundation that a man like Peter represented and STILL triumph.

Now I truly agree that Peter had some authority, but one must remember that Jesus also told the Apostles to look to His brother James for authority as well. The simple fact is that Jesus did NOT set out a clear succession.

Muhammed also tried to set out a successor - His son-in-law Ali, but while Ali tended to the remains of His Prophet and father-in-law the other companions were stealing the succession with a caliphate rather than an Imamship. It would be twenty years and three more caliphs before Ali succeeded to the authority Muhammed would have had him given from the start. Also one must note that each of the first four caliphs was killed by disgruntled followers or assassinated, so the succession after Muhammed is also flawed.

It was not until the Revelation of Baha`u'llah that a clear succession was planned, documented and successfully acheived.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Mister_T]

So would it be accurate to say that you don't believe the Apostles were given authority that set them apart from everyone else?

No it wouldn't be accurate.

 

[Mister_T]

Moses and Abaraham didn't have a church. Sounds like they did just fine.

 

[Squirt]

No it wouldn't be accurate.

Well, you've just contradicted yourself then. Because you also just got through saying:

Last time I checked all those who are in Christ have equal authority.

 

[Squirt]

Moses and Abaraham didn't have a church. Sounds like they did just fine.

Of course they did! Why would you say they didn't?

 

[linwood]

I find it kinda humorous that all those who follow an organized religion are the ones arguing about what an organized religion is in this thread, of all thread.
Irony.

This IS the point.

Dogma divides

 

[Squirt]

I find it kinda humorous that all those who follow an organized religion are the ones arguing about what an organized religion is in this thread, of all thread.
Irony.

This IS the point.

Dogma divides

And this would be your rationale for rejecting organized religion? Sounds like throwing out the baby with the bath water to me.

 

[Popeyesays]

Moses and Abaraham didn't have a church. Sounds like they did just fine.

Moses had a "church", He had a priesthood, eventually there were temples, then the Great Temple was built and the other temples destroyed. Today there is no "church" as there is no priesthood, but the Judaic beliefs still have strong organization, synagogues, communities and "Rabbis" (who are not priests at all - there are no more priests).

Abraham also had a "church" as the authority descended through the annointed son.

Regards,
Scott

 

[linwood]

And this would be your rationale for rejecting organized religion? Sounds like throwing out the baby with the bath water to me.

Not at all.
It`s more like taking the baby out of the viscous slime that passes for bathwater and cleaning him up.

 

[Mister_T]

Well, you've just contradicted yourself then

No I didn't. I just didn't give an explanation. The difference between The Apostles and everyone else (present day Christians). Apostles: Had directly and personally touched, interacted, and experienced Christ. Everyone else: has not. At least not in the manner that the Apostles did. The Apostles (although far from perfect) are reliable because thay actually hung out with Jesus. Everyone else...hasn't. The world is so socially polluted today that it's hard to find anybody to really trust. So I trust in God alone.

Of course they did! Why would you say they didn't

Not by todays standards they didn't.

 

[Mister_T]

Moses had a "church", He had a priesthood, eventually there were temples, then the Great Temple was built and the other temples destroyed. Today there is no "church" as there is no priesthood, but the Judaic beliefs still have strong organization, synagogues, communities and "Rabbis" (who are not priests at all - there are no more priests).

Abraham also had a "church" as the authority descended through the annointed son.

Regards,
Scott

Read my last post. The way the Christian church is run today is way different then what they had back then. And therefore, I would not label what they had back then a church.

 

[Squirt]

Not at all.
It`s more like taking the baby out of the viscous slime that passes for bathwater and cleaning him up.

And what makes you think you are in a position to do that? You apparently have no religious beliefs at all, and yet you feel that you are qualified to call the beliefs of others "viscous slime."

 

[Mister_T]

But like I said earlier. It's a personal preference. If you dig church, awesome.

 

[Popeyesays]

Read my last post. The way the Christian church is run today is way different then what they had back then. And therefore, I would not label what they had back then a church.

Therewere a bunch of Christian churches within fifty years of Jesus crucifixion. Tarsus, Jerusalem, bunches - the Epistles are all letters TO those various churches from the Apostles - they had too many churches to visit all the time and used letters passed back and forth - even the Book of Revelations lists the churches of the time.

Churches . . . . plural. The great church did not split between east and west until the Bishop of Rome tried to claim supremacy over the other bishops.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Mister_T]

Many churches seem to be loving the church and it's activities more than having a relationship with God. I know not all are like this. I feel the best way to experience God is through my own personal relationship with him and not going through a church.

 

[Smoke]

And what makes you think you are in a position to do that? You apparently have no religious beliefs at all, and yet you feel that you are qualified to call the beliefs of others "viscous slime."

Do you have to be submerged in slime to know it's slime?

 

[Mister_T]

Therewere a bunch of Christian churches within fifty years of Jesus crucifixion. Tarsus, Jerusalem, bunches - the Epistles are all letters TO those various churches from the Apostles - they had too many churches to visit all the time and used letters passed back and forth - even the Book of Revelations lists the churches of the time.

Churches . . . . plural. The great church did not split between east and west until the Bishop of Rome tried to claim supremacy over the other bishops.

Regards,
Scott

Your right about that. I was talking in the time of Moses and Abraham.

 

[Popeyesays]

Many churches seem to be loving the church and it's activities more than having a relationship with God. I know not all are like this. I feel the best way to experience God is through my own personal relationship with him and not going through a church.

You're more than welcome to that opinion, though fellowship and community are stressed by Jesus Himself in the Gospels. One cannot find those things alone.

I'm not a Christian, but a Baha`i - community, fellowship are extremely important in the Baha`i Faith.

Regards,
Scott