Does proselyzing hurt or harm people?

[lunamoth]

My point was not really about Iran or Bahai's. I'm just trying to point out that there are two sides to proselytysing, the guys doing it, and the guys taking it. Both sides Have some validity, but I would generally rather go with a victim impact statement that a definition by the bully. There is debate as to what it is. In my opinion, it doesn't have to be 'in your face'.

One of the factors that had my 15 year old daughter drop out of school and later go to another one was the overzealousness of the 'Christian club' and scorn towards the nonbelievers. The staff just turned a blind eye to it. A public school BTW.

So some people who don't feel they are proeseltysing at all, by most other people's standards, are. An open invitation or imploring me to read some of 'my good material' here on RF for example, I consider proseletysing. Others may not.

But surely the pastor inside his own building preaching to the already converted isn't proseletysing at all. I had a problem once with a woman who came to our Hindu temple, and an invited swami was speaking about the greatness of Hinduism, and she considered it proseletysing. I though she was dead wrong.

To some extent proselytizing is in the eye of the beholder. Frankly, since this is supposed to a Religious Education forum, it seems reasonable to expect people to come here and share information about their religion. Lots of people are trying to sell things I am not interested in, including religions.

For me, the line is crossed when it switches from offering information to browbeating, coercion, pressure, threats, or withholding aid in the name of spreading 'the faith,' whatever the faith is. It sounds like what your daughter experienced was across the line, and it is a shame that no one stopped the bullying she experienced. Going door to door, having clubs, holding public events, none of that seems like proselytizing. Coming to a religious discussion forum and presenting your religious (or non-religious) views with passion does not seem like proselytizing.

2c

 

[Greyn]

I have seen many Krishna groups walk the streets singing religious songs and giving food out to whoever would except (as well as pamphlets explaining their religion). I would assume some would see this as proselytizing, as well?

I do not find anything wrong with it (and at times it can be an enriching experience). But, it can be annoying and at worst cases dangerous (I would not call those extreme cases religious proselytizing, though.) The individual is still responsible to make their own decision concerning the "message" being sent.

 

[Vinayaka]

To some extent proselytizing is in the eye of the beholder. Frankly, since this is supposed to a Religious Education forum, it seems reasonable to expect people to come here and share information about their religion. Lots of people are trying to sell things I am not interested in, including religions.

For me, the line is crossed when it switches from offering information to browbeating, coercion, pressure, threats, or withholding aid in the name of spreading 'the faith,' whatever the faith is. It sounds like what your daughter experienced was across the line, and it is a shame that no one stopped the bullying she experienced. Going door to door, having clubs, holding public events, none of that seems like proselytizing. Coming to a religious discussion forum and presenting your religious (or non-religious) views with passion does not seem like proselytizing.

2c

Wow. There certainly are different views. re you sure you meant to say going door to door is NOT proseletysing. If not, then what is it?

 

[darkendless]

I have seen many Krishna groups walk the streets singing religious songs and giving food out to whoever would except (as well as pamphlets explaining their religion). I would assume some would see this as proselytizing, as well?

I do not find anything wrong with it (and at times it can be an enriching experience). But, it can be annoying and at worst cases dangerous (I would not call those extreme cases religious proselytizing, though.) The individual is still responsible to make their own decision concerning the "message" being sent.

It annoys me that people think I need to hear their message. We both (i think) live in countries where a variety of religions have centres of worship which are easily accessible. If I was interested I think i'd go to them. Them comming to me is not only arrogant and offensive but morally wrong.

Interestingly as a side note: I wish that the centres sending out missionaries would at least send out missionaries that are up for a solid debate. Most of them ain't so hot at answering specific questions :drool:

 

[darkendless]

Going door to door views with passion does not seem like proselytizing.

How on earth is that not preaching in most cases?

I have once been presented with a flier inviting me to an information session but other than that its people saying "accept Jesus."

Stereotypically people want to sell their religion when they come to my door. Is it not the same in your experience?

 

[lunamoth]

OK, so maybe going door to door is proselytizing.

But, I've had LDS and JWs at my door several times and I just say I'm not interested and they leave. I've had milkmen who are much more aggressive! It is far from hurtful or harmful.

 

[darkendless]

OK, so maybe going door to door is proselytizing.

But, I've had LDS and JWs at my door several times and I just say I'm not interested and they leave. I've had milkmen who are much more aggressive! It is far from hurtful or harmful.

The point is they shouldn't be comming to your door simply because its their right. Is it my right to praise Hitler on people's doorsteps?

 

[lunamoth]

The point is they shouldn't be comming to your door simply because its their right. Is it my right to praise Hitler on people's doorsteps?

Sure. And if you are as polite as the LDS and JWS and leave when I say no thanks, I won't call the police on you.

 

[darkendless]

Sure. And if you are as polite as the LDS and JWS and leave when I say no thanks, I won't call the police on you.

So if you for some reason were offended by the JW's you could call the police and say they were harassing you and have them arrested?

 

[lunamoth]

So if you for some reason were offended by the JW's you could call the police and say they were harassing you and have them arrested?

If anyone comes to my door and harasses me I will let the police know. If they simply 'offend' me, but are polite and quietly leave, no problem.

 

[darkendless]

If anyone comes to my door and harasses me I will let the police know. If they simply 'offend' me, but are polite and quietly leave, no problem.

You're a lot more tolerant than I am

 

[lunamoth]

You're a lot more tolerant than I am

Well, I do have a note on my door that says "No solicitors, excepts Scouts and people from the neighborhood for schools and charity." So, I'm not that tolerant.

For some reason it does not keep the political canvassers away, though. :149:

 

[Vinayaka]

To some extent proselytizing is in the eye of the beholder. Frankly, since this is supposed to a Religious Education forum, it seems reasonable to expect people to come here and share information about their religion.

Absolutely. If it bothered a lot of people here, they wouldn't stick around, and I suspect some don't.

 

[waitasec]

It annoys me that people think I need to hear their message. We both (i think) live in countries where a variety of religions have centres of worship which are easily accessible. If I was interested I think i'd go to them. Them comming to me is not only arrogant and offensive but morally wrong.

morally wrong because it's an act of control over another person.
and for some reason religion gives them this illusion that it is their right to do so.

 

[waitasec]

Absolutely. If it bothered a lot of people here, they wouldn't stick around, and I suspect some don't.

or challenge the proselytizers charge...
and debate about it...
:yes:

 

[BruceDLimber]

Apparently some Bahais break the rule then.

Iran arrests Bahais for proselytizing - Jihad Watch

Oh--you take the nonsense the Iranian government and clergy say about the Baha'i Faith as TRUTHFUL STATEMENTS, then?!

In that case, I have a bridge for sale. :-(

Furthermore, I assure you that any Baha'i found to be proselytizing by other Baha'is in any part of the world will indeed be counseled to cease and if he or she fails to do so, will be sanctioned!

Bruce

 

[ChristineES]

morally wrong because it's an act of control over another person.
and for some reason religion gives them this illusion that it is their right to do so.

I don't really see it as control. If someone were tell me their politics, I wouldn't see it as control, or if someone told me about their love of cats and why they think everyone should have one, then I don't see that as control, either (I wouldn't have to buy or adopt a cat if I really didn't want one, ie). I don't see how talking of religion can be control. If someone starts "dismissing you to hell" or saying "God hates you" or something like that, it becomes harassment and harassment is always wrong and harmful.

 

[waitasec]

I don't really see it as control. If someone were tell me their politics, I wouldn't see it as control, or if someone told me about their love of cats and why they think everyone should have one, then I don't see that as control, either (I wouldn't have to buy or adopt a cat if I really didn't want one, ie). I don't see how talking of religion can be control. If someone starts "dismissing you to hell" or saying "God hates you" or something like that, it becomes harassment and harassment is always wrong and harmful.

well if i were to walk up to you out of no where and say, 'if your politics isn't like this...you are wrong'. then yes it is an act of control, (it's up to you to give me the power of control) however if we are engaged in a conversation which happens to be about politics that is another thing entirely...

 

[Vinayaka]

Oh--you take the nonsense the Iranian government and clergy say about the Baha'i Faith as TRUTHFUL STATEMENTS, then?!

In that case, I have a bridge for sale. :-(

Furthermore, I assure you that any Baha'i found to be proselytizing by other Baha'is in any part of the world will indeed be counseled to cease and if he or she fails to do so, will be sanctioned!

Bruce

Not really. It was just the first thing I hit when I googled Bahai + proseltysing. it got quite a few hits. Some others were on former Bahais stating that one of the reasons they left was because of too much proseltysing. (Google it yourself if you don't believe me.) But as you've noticed, there is quite the variance here on the definition of the word. Everyone has a different opinion. A condescending attitude can be read into almost anything if one chooses.

Maybe we need to start another thread on 'What exactly is 'proseletysing?' I'm guessing we'd get a wide variance.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It should be noted that proselytizing--defined as telling anyone else what to believe or not believe--is strictly forbidden in the Baha'i Faith!

Peace,

Bruce

Hmm. This seems rather irrelevant to the topic.

"I want to discuss the implication of 'X' when it occurs."

"Hey, everyone! Baha'i don't do 'X'!"

Doesn't really add a whole lot to the conversation, does it? I mean, do you pop into threads about the designated hitter rule and announce to everyone that you don't play baseball?

OK, so maybe going door to door is proselytizing.

But, I've had LDS and JWs at my door several times and I just say I'm not interested and they leave. I've had milkmen who are much more aggressive! It is far from hurtful or harmful.

... to you. The actual motivation can't really be pinned down from that interaction, though, can it? The mere fact that they leave when you explain that you're not interested could be anything from courtesy ("we don't want to bother her, so we'll move on") to sales prospecting ("she'd be a hard one to convince, so let's find an easier mark and not waste our time here"). The intention behind it could be good or bad.