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Does Quantum Mechanics Reveal That Life Is But a Dream?

Triumph

FREEDOM OF SPEECH
But what if that's not what reality is? What if the mystics turn out to be right?
If you mean mystics as prophets then many are right. For example, the word Leviathan is the perfect description of an armed submarine possibly a nuclear armed sub.
Job 41:1
Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?
about.

15 His scales are his pride, shut up together as with a close seal.

16 One is so near to another, that no air can come between them.

Isaiah 27:1
In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea."

Note not on the sea which would be a warship, this is in the sea as is a submarine. People are wrong to think every time the word Lord is used that it means God or Jesus. God means God, Jesus is Lord only as a teacher of truth. A Lord can be a ruler of a nation and in war it is Lord over the people demanding they fight. Punish does not mean kill, the sub is ordered to fight, face death.
Leviathan is called a serpent because it can kill, piercing because it's missiles can pierce anything, crooked because it can change direction. China uses the symbol of a dragon to represent their nation and China threatens war over ownership of the South China Sea, the "Sea Beast" portion of WW3, the last war on Earth. Also note the word China is "in" the phrase "South China Sea".
 
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Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
There continue to be debates about what quantum mechanics suggests, philosophically, about the nature of reality, but it is meaningless and wrong to suggest that any of them involve reality being "a dream".
Why is it wrong, when currently that appears to be the case? I think it's amusing that you say science is supposed to be pointing away from mysticism or how ever you phrase it. Should not science point to what is, not what you think is correct?
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Why is it wrong, when currently that appears to be the case? I think it's amusing that you say science is supposed to be pointing away from mysticism or how ever you phrase it. Should not science point to what is, not what you think is correct?
But it is not the case, as I have pointed out. There is no sense in which QM points to reality being "a dream", whatever that is supposed to mean.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
If you mean mystics as prophets then many are right. For example, the word Leviathan is the perfect description of an armed submarine possibly a nuclear armed sub.
Job 41:1
Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?
about.

15 His scales are his pride, shut up together as with a close seal.

16 One is so near to another, that no air can come between them.

Isaiah 27:1
In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea."

Note not on the sea which would be a warship, this is in the sea as is a submarine. People are wrong to think every time the word Lord is used that it means God or Jesus. God means God, Jesus is Lord only as a teacher of truth. A Lord can be a ruler of a nation and in war it is Lord over the people demanding they fight. Punish does not mean kill, the sub is ordered to fight, face death.
Leviathan is called a serpent because it can kill, piercing because it's missiles can pierce anything, crooked because it can change direction. China uses the symbol of a dragon to represent their nation and China threatens war over ownership of the South China Sea, the "Sea Beast" portion of WW3, the last war on Earth. Also note the word China is "in" the phrase "South China Sea".
What has any of this to do with quantum mechanics?
 

Triumph

FREEDOM OF SPEECH
Why is it wrong, when currently that appears to be the case? I think it's amusing that you say science is supposed to be pointing away from mysticism or how ever you phrase it. Should not science point to what is, not what you think is correct?
Bible Prophecy is full of science. A rod of iron is a rifle representing an army. A flaming sword is a missile. A seraphim is a 6 wing shaped fighter jet like a F-35 that flies with "twain", Distributed Aperture System in the exact locations described in scripture, placed in 2's. The Bible describes this=
"Northrop Grumman’s EO/IR distributed aperture system (DAS) provides a 360 degree, protective sphere of situational awareness for the F-35 Lightning pilot. DAS warns the pilot of incoming aircraft and missile threats as well as provides day and night vision, fire control capability and precision tracking of wingmen and friendly aircraft for tactical maneuvering."
The 360 degree sight is described in the Bible as "eyes all around" as DAS allows the pilot to see even through the jet itself. The Seraphim flies with DAS in twos and without it can be shot down becoming a fallen angel.
Watch what the Bible reveals as a burner and reaper. /www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1NrFZddihQ
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
But it is not the case, as I have pointed out. There is no sense in which QM points to reality being "a dream", whatever that is supposed to mean.


A dream, perhaps not. A complex web of illusion, however…

“In the world of physics we watch a shadow graph performance of the drama of familiar life. The shadow of my elbow rests on the shadow table, as the shadow ink flows over the shadow paper. It is all symbolic, and as a symbol the physicist leaves it. Then comes the alchemist Mind who transmutes the symbols…to put the conclusion simply, the stuff of the world is mind-stuff.”
- Arthur Stanley Eddington

“The solidity of the classical vision of the world is nothing other than our own myopia. The certainties of classical physics are just probabilities. The well defined and solid picture of the world given by the old physics is an illusion.”
- Carlo Rovelli
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
A dream, perhaps not. A complex web of illusion, however…

“In the world of physics we watch a shadow graph performance of the drama of familiar life. The shadow of my elbow rests on the shadow table, as the shadow ink flows over the shadow paper. It is all symbolic, and as a symbol the physicist leaves it. Then comes the alchemist Mind who transmutes the symbols…to put the conclusion simply, the stuff of the world is mind-stuff.”
- Arthur Stanley Eddington

“The solidity of the classical vision of the world is nothing other than our own myopia. The certainties of classical physics are just probabilities. The well defined and solid picture of the world given by the old physics is an illusion.”
- Carlo Rovelli
Yes the old physics is an illusion, (at the level of QM systems). That does not mean reality is a dream.

Eddington's remark is just pointing out that science deals in models of reality, rather than reality itself. Which does not mean reality is a dream, either.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
If you mean mystics as prophets then many are right. For example, the word Leviathan is the perfect description of an armed submarine possibly a nuclear armed sub.
Job 41:1
Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?
about.

15 His scales are his pride, shut up together as with a close seal.

16 One is so near to another, that no air can come between them.

Isaiah 27:1
In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea."

Note not on the sea which would be a warship, this is in the sea as is a submarine. People are wrong to think every time the word Lord is used that it means God or Jesus. God means God, Jesus is Lord only as a teacher of truth. A Lord can be a ruler of a nation and in war it is Lord over the people demanding they fight. Punish does not mean kill, the sub is ordered to fight, face death.
Leviathan is called a serpent because it can kill, piercing because it's missiles can pierce anything, crooked because it can change direction. China uses the symbol of a dragon to represent their nation and China threatens war over ownership of the South China Sea, the "Sea Beast" portion of WW3, the last war on Earth. Also note the word China is "in" the phrase "South China Sea".
Job isn't about Submarines...how would that make any sense in the context of God telling Job that he controls this beast? A submarine that wouldn't be invented for several centuries? I'm inclined to believe that the Leviathan represents Satan. And God is telling Job he's holding back Satan from doing his worst. It makes sense because Satan is called Leviathan elsewhere.
 

Triumph

FREEDOM OF SPEECH
What has any of this to do with quantum mechanics?
Without people to contemplate quantum mechanics then there is no quantum mechanics to experience in reality or theory on this planet.
The Bible explains in detail how humans create their own great and final extinction event on this planet so without any scientific analyzers there is no
human concept of Quantum mechanics, it ceases to exist. The final war is thermonuclear and that is all about quantization of energy
and how it impacts geographical reality. The Bible describes cities will disappear in an instant, suddenly. A thermonuclear missile amplitude is restricted
to a prescribed set of values that human flesh will simply cease to exist in the presence of it's intense level of heat. Radiation is the King of all Kings
and ALL will fall because none have the scientific knowledge today to control it once it is massively released upon the entire world.
The atomic bombs used in WW2 are weak in comparison to a FUSION weapon.
Nuclear fission is self sustaining and corium will grow as it absorbs atoms around it releasing greater and greater amounts of radiation that will rise and circle the globe on the jet stream raining fallout everywhere.
This is described in the Bible as a "worm in a gourd" hanging above humans that are imprisoned beneath in a small space. The worm is radiation and the gourd outside represents the ecology as the worm eats, destroys the seeds of all biological DNA and man imprisoned by it, is helpless to do anything about it.
 
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Putting this ScientificAmerican blog entry here because of the agreement between Eastern models where we are "dreaming" that we're individuals and the headline of this entry. This hypothesis is naturally not proven and even controversial but maybe it's true.

Does Quantum Mechanics Reveal That Life Is But a Dream?

A radical quantum hypothesis casts doubt on objective reality

As philosopher Michael Strevens points out in The Knowledge Machine, science resolves disputes by means of repeated observations and experiments. Strevens calls scientists’ commitment to empirical data the “iron rule of explanation.” Ideally, the iron rule produces durable, objectively true accounts of the world.

But subjectivity is hard to expunge even in physics, the foundation on which science rests. Quantum mechanics, a mathematical model of matter at very small scales, is science’s most rigorously tested theory. Countless experiments have confirmed it, as do computer chips, lasers and other technologies that exploit quantum effects.

Unfortunately, quantum mechanics defies common sense. For more than a century, physicists have tried to interpret the theory, to turn it into a coherent story, in vain. “Every competent physicist can ‘do’ quantum mechanics,” a leading textbook says, “but the stories we tell ourselves about what we are doing are as various as the tales of Scheherazade, and almost as implausible.”
...
Others keep probing the theory. In 1961 a prominent theorist, Eugene Wigner, proposed a thought experiment similar to the conundrum of Schrödinger’s cat. Instead of the fabled cat in a box, imagine that a friend of Wigner is inside a laboratory monitoring a radioactive specimen. When the specimen decays, a detector flashes.

Now imagine that Wigner is outside the lab. If Wigner’s friend sees the detector flash, he knows that the specimen has decayed. But to Wigner, standing outside the lab, the specimen, his friend and the entire lab hover in a blur of possible states. Wigner and his friend seem to occupy two distinct realities.

In 2020, physicists performed a version of Wigner’s thought experiment and concluded that his intuitions were correct. In a story for Science headlined “Quantum paradox points to shaky foundations of reality,” physics reporter George Musser says the experiment calls objectivity into question. “It could mean there is no such thing as an absolute fact,” Musser writes, “one that is as true for me as it is for you.”
...
QBists hedge their mind-centrism, if only so they don’t come across as loons or mystics. They accept that matter exists as well as mind, and they reject solipsism, which holds that no sentient being can really be sure that any other being is sentient. But QBism’s core message, science writer Amanda Gefter says, is that the idea of “a single objective reality is an illusion.” A dream, you might say.
...
Physicists have more in common than most would like to admit with artists, who try to turn the chaos of things into a meaningful narrative. Some artists thwart our desire for meaning. T. S. Eliot’s poem The Waste Land is an anti-narrative, a grab bag of images that pop in and out of the void. The poem resembles a dream, or nightmare. Its meaning is that there is no meaning, no master narrative. Life is a joke, and the joke is on you if you believe otherwise...
Where's that <not useful> frubal when I need it.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Job isn't about Submarines...how would that make any sense in the context of God telling Job that he controls this beast? A submarine that wouldn't be invented for several centuries? I'm inclined to believe that the Leviathan represents Satan. And God is telling Job he's holding back Satan from doing his worst. It makes sense because Satan is called Leviathan elsewhere.
Good luck!
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Yes the old physics is an illusion, (at the level of QM systems). That does not mean reality is a dream.

Eddington's remark is just pointing out that science deals in models of reality, rather than reality itself. Which does not mean reality is a dream, either.


Acknowledged. However, it seems that the closer physicists get to observing the fundamental fabric from which reality is woven, the less substantial it appears, and the more elusive it’s precise nature becomes. All that is solid melts into air, to quote Rovelli quoting Shakespeare.
 

Triumph

FREEDOM OF SPEECH
Job isn't about Submarines...how would that make any sense in the context of God telling Job that he controls this beast? A submarine that wouldn't be invented for several centuries? I'm inclined to believe that the Leviathan represents Satan. And God is telling Job he's holding back Satan from doing his worst. It makes sense because Satan is called Leviathan elsewhere.
You do understand that the story of Job is a parable and the Bible is a book of prophecy about events that happen in the future? Job represents Israel in the end of days. His prosperity is destroyed by war that is caused by his self exaltation in desiring excess wealth unshared regardless of the poverty around him. Satan is just a word describing a person that believes in a religion that worships a man invented God and that person is willing to kill people that will not believe in the man created God they worship.
People that believe in false religions making themselves "Satan", do attain armed submarines in the final war and use them to destroy people.
 
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Martin

Spam, wonderful spam (bloody vikings!)
Acknowledged. However, it seems that the closer physicists get to observing the fundamental fabric from which reality is woven, the less substantial it appears, and the more elusive it’s precise nature becomes. All that is solid melts into air, to quote Rovelli quoting Shakespeare.

That's true at the sub-atomic scale, but at the human scale behaviour is determined by Newtonian mechanics, not quantum mechanics.
 

Triumph

FREEDOM OF SPEECH
That's true at the sub-atomic scale, but at the human scale behaviour is determined by Newtonian mechanics, not quantum mechanics.
What is interesting also is human behavior is partially controlled by gut bacteria.
Gut Bacteria Change Brain Function
"A growing group of researchers around the world are investigating how the microbiome, as this bacterial ecosystem is known, regulates how people think and feel. Scientists have found evidence that this assemblage—about a thousand different species of bacteria, trillions of cells that together weigh between one and three pounds—could play a crucial role in autism, anxiety, depression, and other disorders."
So human behavior is not only Newtonian mechanics it is also if you ate a Fig Newton or not causing the acceleration of a standard kilogram measuring the net force acting on it. The net force is the vector sum of all forces acting on the object being considered. .So a kilogram of gut bacteria measured with the net force of other species of bacteria acting against each other is the vector sum of all the trillions of cells labeled gut bacteria forced on the human being considered that changes brain function that reacts in physical force.
Gut bacteria enabled people to discover quantum mechanics which was their expression of Particle physics in force of motion on a sub atomic level altering brain waves and emotion..
 

Triumph

FREEDOM OF SPEECH
That's true at the sub-atomic scale, but at the human scale behaviour is determined by Newtonian mechanics, not quantum mechanics.
“If the atoms never swerve so as to originate some new movement that will snap the bonds of fate, the everlasting sequence of cause and effect—what is the source of the free will possessed by living things throughout the earth?”—Titus Lucretius Carus, Roman philosopher and poet, 99–55 BC.
Do subatomic particles have free will?
If we have free will, so do subatomic particles, mathematicians claim to prove.
The physicist David Bohm, argued in the 1950s that the behavior of subatomic particles is entirely determined by “hidden variables” that cannot be observed.
Those hidden variables could be labeled emotions, to spin or not to spin. The particle cannot have a definite spin in every direction before it’s measured. If it did, physicists would be able to occasionally observe it breaking the 1-0-1 rule, which never happens. Instead, it must “decide” which spin to have on the fly.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
You do understand that the story of Job is a parable and the Bible is a book of prophecy about events that happen in the future? Job represents Israel in the end of days. His prosperity is destroyed by war that is caused by his self exaltation in desiring excess wealth unshared regardless of the poverty around him. Satan is just a word describing a person that believes in a religion that worships a man invented God and that person is willing to kill people that will not believe in the man created God they worship.
People that believe in false religions making themselves "Satan", do attain armed submarines in the final war and use them to destroy people.
No I don't. Job is an ancient Jewish book about a real individual as far as we know, and it's definitely not among the prophetic books. It's more like parable, yes, in the style it's written, a story with a moral to it. And Satan is portrayed as a real entity.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Acknowledged. However, it seems that the closer physicists get to observing the fundamental fabric from which reality is woven, the less substantial it appears, and the more elusive it’s precise nature becomes. All that is solid melts into air, to quote Rovelli quoting Shakespeare.
Well yes, I suppose so, but that is already a commonplace of ordinary chemistry. What, after all, is a "solid"? It is a collection of atoms packed in a way that makes the attraction and repulsion of their electrons and nuclei resist compression or extension. And an atom is itself 99% empty space and has no finite extent. Solid, schmolid.

What Rovelli was getting at, surely, is the more fundamental issue that the determinate properties that makes something appear "really" there are only defined when systems interact. In between, we just have probabilities of future properties in the next interaction. So one can perhaps say that "hard reality" appears to be in a sense discontinuous.

However, it's wrong to imagine that everything vanishes in between, since we can write down rules for the future properties we expect at the next interaction (the wave function and the operators for each property). So something continues, just not in an "old physics" kind of way. So it is that the nature of reality seems, according to the QM model, to be different from "old physics" reality. Again, no dreams, and, if it melts into air, we can say quite a lot about what will happen when it comes back out of its melted state.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
That's true at the sub-atomic scale, but at the human scale behaviour is determined by Newtonian mechanics, not quantum mechanics.

The drama of our lives appears to unfold on that stage of four dimensional spacetime which characterises our macroscopic experience, sure.

But speculation about what exactly is determined, how, and by what, has led quantum physicists and philosophers of science, working at the frontiers of knowledge, to conceptualise many dimensions, and even many worlds.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Well yes, I suppose so, but that is already a commonplace of ordinary chemistry. What, after all, is a "solid"? It is a collection of atoms packed in a way that makes the attraction and repulsion of their electrons and nuclei resist compression or extension. And an atom is itself 99% empty space and has no finite extent. Solid, schmolid.

What Rovelli was getting at, surely, is the more fundamental issue that the determinate properties that makes something appear "really" there are only defined when systems interact. In between, we just have probabilities of future properties in the next interaction. So one can perhaps say that "hard reality" appears to be in a sense discontinuous.

However, it's wrong to imagine that everything vanishes in between, since we can write down rules for the future properties we expect at the next interaction (the wave function and the operators for each property). So something continues, just not in an "old physics" kind of way. So it is that the nature of reality seems, according to the QM model, to be different from "old physics" reality. Again, no dreams, and, if it melts into air, we can say quite a lot about what will happen when it comes back out of its melted state.



Sure. Given the behaviour of elementary particles can be calculated probabilistically with extraordinary accuracy, then whether wave function, elementary particle, or quantum field, the sub atomic world is clearly governed by precise and immutable natural laws.

But I find the relational interpretation of QM, whereby entities exhibit qualities only through interaction with each other, to have astounding philosophical implications. This, as I understand it, is not to say that there is no discernible form or order to the fabric of the material world - far from it, in fact - but that the nature of reality, and the properties of real things, manifest themselves only in the ever changing, ever restless molecular dance; and that if the music of the spheres should ever stop, then perhaps there would be nothing there at all. If properties have meaning only in interaction, then substance is manifest only in impermanence - which seems to suggest a paradox at the very heart of existence.
 
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