Does race exist?

[Terrywoodenpic]

Race is a classification, so it exists.
It might be based on poor distinctions but it exists.

 

[metis]

In order to use the word "race", one really needs to use a specific definition as to exactly what is used to differentiate one "race" from another. Skin color is a terrible item to use because skin colors vary gradually and greatly worldwide with plenty of mixing and matching. Nor does differing species work when dealing with humans. The reality is that nothing works when dealing with the issue of "race" scientifically when dealing with human populations. However, in common everyday usage, it can communicate certain messages more conveniently even if they're not scientifically plausible.

 

[George-ananda]

There's always "more to the story" when dealing with both anthropology or any history. Both are sorta like dealing with a good mystery novel whereas there's often only hints as to what actually happened. This creates and atmosphere in either field as being both exciting and nauseating at the same time.

These mysteries are also what keep RF active and our brains engaged. I like your last point about 'exciting and nauseating' and I would certainly add 'frustrating'.

 

[Kirran]

On the molars thing, mutation is by itself a deterministic force.

So, without any selection pressure acting against smaller teeth, loss of function mutations, more likely than gain of function mutations to occur, could accumulate.

Genetic drift is of course also involved here. Natural selection may be too, if there's a disadvantage to spending the energy on mildly bigger molars.

 

[dust1n]

It does tell you about the likelihood of some other traits.
If you're an Amerindian, I can predict that you're lactose intolerant.
If you're northern European, I can predict that you're not.

You could predict either one of those things to be true, but it wouldn't necessarily make it true, as not every single Amerindian is lactose intolerant, and not every single northern European person is lactase persistent. Some of it is genetic, some isn't.

 

[Kirran]

You could predict either one of those things to be true, but it wouldn't necessarily make it true, as not every single Amerindian is lactose intolerant, and not every single northern European person is lactase persistent. Some of it is genetic, some isn't.

Interestingly, we've yet to find proof that there arw any 'pure' Amerindians left.

 

[dust1n]

Interestingly, we've yet to find proof that there arw any 'pure' Amerindians left.

I'm willing to bet you could find some good examples of genetically isolated peoples in places like Greenland, and the Amazon. But as to "pure" Amerinidians.. that doesn't really make sense to me. Any indigenous person in America would have came through (in time) via Siberia, and originally from North Africa, Southeast Europe, or the whole Middle East region (if anyone can ever narrow it down). Same for any non indigenous person in America.

 

[Revoltingest]

You could predict either one of those things to be true, but it wouldn't necessarily make it true, as not every single Amerindian is lactose intolerant, and not every single northern European person is lactase persistent. Some of it is genetic, some isn't.

Many things are based upon statistics rather than absolute determinism.
Modern precision manufacturing wouldn't exist without it.
But we wouldn't claim that doesn't exist, would we?

 

[dust1n]

Many things are based upon statistics rather than absolute determinism.
Modern precision manufacturing wouldn't exist without it.
But we wouldn't claim that doesn't exist, would we?

Does precision manufacturing allow for a margin of error of up to 10 percent?

EDIT: Hold on, let me let me add something real quick...

 

[Revoltingest]

Does precision manufacturing allow for a margin of error of up to 10 percent?

EDIT: Hold on, let me let me add something real quick...

Too slow!
No...not 10%.

 

[dust1n]

Does precision manufacturing allow for a margin of error of up to 10 percent?

EDIT: Hold on, let me let me add something real quick...

Too slow!
No...not 10%.

Then consider this. I could look at someone's skin, and roughly guess if someone is lactose intolerant probably 70-90% of time probably of skin color alone, just by assuming all white people are lactose persistent and lactose intolerant, or I could give you a concentrated liquid of lactose, take a blood sample, determine if your glucose levels have risen, and tell you with 90% accuracy, or look in your intestines and probably >90%, or just look at the gene on your DNA called "lactase" and determine whether or not it's producing "lactase" and probably get around 99.9% accuracy depending on the machine.

That being said, obviously knowing one's family history and ancestry is incredibly useful for doctors no matter what they are looking into. Well, ... not anything, but you know what I mean.

EDIT: And yes, I did, have to look up what a lactose intolerance test was.

 

[Revoltingest]

Then consider this. I could look at someone's skin, and roughly guess if someone is lactose intolerant probably 70-90% of time probably of skin color alone, just by assuming all white people are lactose persistent and lactose intolerant, or I could give you a concentrated liquid of lactose, take a blood sample, determine if your glucose levels have risen, and tell you with 90% accuracy, or look in your intestines and probably >90%, or just look at the gene on your DNA called "lactase" and determine whether or not it's producing "lactase" and probably get around 99.9% accuracy depending on the machine.

That being said, obviously knowing one's family history and ancestry is incredibly useful for doctors no matter what they are looking into. Well, ... not anything, but you know what I mean.

EDIT: And yes, I did, have to look up what a lactose intolerance test was.

You're correctly pointing out that individual traits will vary with a race.
But this isn't what defines on.
It's a constellation of frequent traits.

 

[Tiapan]

Since we can interbreed with any "race" we are therefore all one species. Hence '"race" is simply variance within the species so "race" becomes an ambiguious concept declaring a difference when in fact we are all basically the same.

 

[Kirran]

I'm willing to bet you could find some good examples of genetically isolated peoples in places like Greenland, and the Amazon. But as to "pure" Amerinidians.. that doesn't really make sense to me. Any indigenous person in America would have came through (in time) via Siberia, and originally from North Africa, Southeast Europe, or the whole Middle East region (if anyone can ever narrow it down). Same for any non indigenous person in America.

Yeah, I would have thought so. But genetically, we haven't found the evidence yet is all.

The common ancestor of all living humans on the planet lived about 3,500 years ago, as evidence stands. Finding an Amerindian with no European/African/Asian etc DNA would push that back to about 12,000 years ago.

EDIT: Also, Inuit aren't Amerindian.

 

[ChristineES]

Race both exists and doesn't exist. On one hand, there are variations in skin tone, eye shape, etc. On the other hand, we're all still equal human beings, even so.

 

[dust1n]

Yeah, I would have thought so. But genetically, we haven't found the evidence yet is all.

The common ancestor of all living humans on the planet lived about 3,500 years ago, as evidence stands.

Finding an Amerindian with no European/African/Asian etc DNA would push that back to about 12,000 years ago.

EDIT: Also, Inuit aren't Amerindian.

How could you find a Native American that didn't have Asian heritage? The ancestors literally walked from Asia to America.

 

[dust1n]

You're correctly pointing out that individual traits will vary with a race.
But this isn't what defines on.
It's a constellation of frequent traits.

Sure. Arbitrarily selected frequent traits.

 

[Revoltingest]

Sure. Arbitrarily selected frequent traits.

Their selection is the one thing which is not arbitrary.
They're based upon differences from other races.

 

[gnomon]

Race is a classification, so it exists.
It might be based on poor distinctions but it exists.

Lord Xenu......as a term of an existing being......exists......

I'm just saying that essentially what you have posted is that as long as one individual states it and defines than it exists within the language.

That doesn't mean much.

The existence of a word is bare compared to the actual understanding of how things work........see my next post.......

 

[gnomon]

I was thinking earlier today about how people define themselves, or their identity, based upon what can be rather spurious notions.

For the longest time I have been told that I have Creek ancestry based upon an unfounded notion that one of my direct male ancestors on my fathers line was a Kentucky Confederate Lieutenant whose wife was one generation descended from Creek natives. That information comes from a will that ancestor left freeing his three slaves upon his death. There is no other evidence. None. Others have remarked that my brother, myself and several of my cousins on my fathers side tan easily in the sun where my cousins on my mothers side without such an alleged history......do not.

So what does that mean? Nothing to me.

What I have found is that I am descended not only from Northern Europeans, obviously factual and traceable, but to Central European Jews who may have a strong genetic heritage from Mediterranean origins. That seems more likely to me.

So what am I? I know for a fact that I have Northern European ancestry as well as Central European Jewish ancestry.

Here's the problem. I have some cousins several times removed that have done extensive research on their ancestry. That's why I know I'm derived from England among the remaining Cornish Gaels who kept their surname of Chun. They are part of my ancestry. So am I Gaelic? No. Being born in Georgia whose most recent ancestors are from Alabama, Kentucky and Georgia speaks mainly of Northern English ancestry based upon the migration patter when England colonized the New World. My ancestry among the direct male goes all the way to the colonization of Georgia.

Yet maybe there is the Creek ancestry as well. Unfortunately much of the records of Georgia were destroyed during the Civil War. Most of mine on the direct line come from Burke County, GA.

What's my race? I know there are Northern Europeans and Central European Jews as a fact.

What is my culture........will that help? I'm an atheist.

Someone tell me what my race is? Because for the longest time in Europe Jews, even those born in and raised in that culture, were considered a separate race from Prussian, Frank, Saxon, Austrian, English, Irish, Swiss, etc. The Jews were always considered a separate race. But I know for a fact that my family history is that of a family, by the surname of Solomon, who migrated from the Germanic States in Central Europe in the 1800's. I also know that I'm derived from Northern English.....a mix of Breton, Scandinavian, Scottish.......who migrated to this continent less than a century before my Jewish ancestors did. Than what if the Creek myth of my family history is true? What is my race?

Don't ask me my culture? If you do that you fail the test immediately.

And here is what I thought earlier today while taking a shower. I thought of the reality show regarding the Roloff family focused on two little people who married and conduct their lives. They have children who are average size.

Read that and sink it in for a moment.

Genetically here are two people who match each other in every way, other than sex, genetically and have children who do not match themselves genetically. Namely on the condition commonly referred to as dwarfism. Here is the other aspect. Cultural experience. There is a definite distinction in culture among those of our society who our little people dealing with common everyday reactions based upon an average human size and they deal with them in a way that has defined a culture within larger society. But the children of these people with a genetic condition do not experience that culture.

I'll leave that last there to see if anyone understands what I'm touching on in terms of race and any biological definition of race.