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Does something have value simply because it exists?

Should things be assumed to have intrinsic value merely for existing over time?

  • Yes

    Votes: 4 40.0%
  • No

    Votes: 6 60.0%

  • Total voters
    10
When we look at the world around us, should we start with the assumption that things that exist have value that derives from their mere existence?

In addition, should we assume that something that has existed for a long time, has even more value, simply because it has existed for a long time? Something that has existed for a day or a year has a tiny amount of 'intrinsic value', 10 years gives a bit, 100 years a lot, and 1000 years a huge amount (See the Lindy Effect for a similar concept)

Or do things only get their value from a 'rational' analysis of tangible or identifiable qualities that they possess?

That is when looking at something currently in existence, it is assumed to be beneficial unless 'proved' otherwise, rather than it is assumed to start from a position of 'zero' and ascribed its value through 'reason' alone. To advocate against something that has existed for a long time would thus require a huge bias in the burden of proof: the case for the status quo or slight change requires less support than the one in favour of fundamental change. Or should an ancient tradition simply start from 'zero' the same as a newly minted idea when the 2 of them are compared?

As an example: Judaism (or other ancient religion) exists and has done for thousands of years, as such it must be performing some kind of positive function in some way. This positive function exists irrespective of our ability to identify, quantify or describe it on 'rational' grounds. Moreover, we should assume that there are aspects of it that we don't understand and factor these into our judgement. Due to our imperfect cognitive abilities, these 'unknown positives' must be assumed to exist, especially in things that have existed a long time, and even more so regarding things (such as religions) that exist in complex systems.

While religion has been used as an example, the idea is meant to apply to anything from ideology, institutions, theory, music, philosophy, etc.

An important note: This idea is meant as a heuristic not an absolute rule. It therefore describes a general truth, not an absolute truth. A general truth is not refuted by a single specific counterexample, it is refuted if it is wrong in general.

It also doesn't mean all change is bad, we should never change anything, or that everything that exists is good and we shouldn't get rid of any of it. It simply means 'tradition', in general, should get a head start over 'progress', and the more ancient the tradition, or the more radical the progress the bigger the head start is (but never large enough that it cannot be overcome).
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
I think there is something to that idea but not without significant practical complications.

I don’t think the value of a thing is entirely objective and will often be circumstantial. Something surviving may well mean someone or something attributed sufficient value to it but that doesn’t mean it has any value to me now. There will also be lots of things that continue to exist despite being largely recognised as negative because they’re consequences of things that do have value – pollution as a result of industrialisation for example, things that has value to a small number of people precisely because of the cost it has to others – something like landmines maybe, or continue to exist not because people want it to but because we’ve simply been unable to stop it – like infectious diseases.

So, I don’t think you can say something has value just because it continues to exist but when assessing the value of something, it certainly makes sense to include how long it has existed and why in our assessment. The reason and context of our assessment of its value in any given case could still mean all of that is legitimately deemed irrelevant though.
 
"Value" is something which we attribute to a thing.
It isn't intrinsic to the thing.

I'm treating value to be synonymous with benefit/utility/etc (for want of a better term).

Something like antibiotics has value regardless of whether or not someone acknowledges this.

But value is a very subjective concept.

Yes, and fickle and subject to fads, fashions and trends.

Our ability to identify value is highly flawed. For example, I'm sure there are things you considered had no 'value' when you were young that you now think are very important.

Which is why it is often best to assume things have value if they have existed for a long time. They have been tested repeatedly in a wide variety of situations, which is more reliable than the judgement of any given individual.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I'm treating value to be synonymous with benefit/utility/etc (for want of a better term).
Something like antibiotics has value regardless of whether or not someone acknowledges this.
Without someone to give it value (ie, benefit from it), it has none.
 
Without someone to give it value (ie, benefit from it), it has none.

Fortunately the world is full of people...

Intrinsic/implicit/tacit value simply refers to positive effects that can exist regardless of whether of not it can be rationally identified. As opposed to the idea that things can be simply observed and interpreted on the merits or their explicit and identifiable qualities.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Fortunately the world is full of people...
Fortunate for those people....but not for mountain gorillas or passenger pigeons.
Intrinsic/implicit/tacit value simply refers to positive effects that can exist regardless of whether of not it can be rationally identified. As opposed to the idea that things can be simply observed and interpreted on the merits or their explicit and identifiable qualities.
But positive for whom?
Those who value it, do so.
Those who don't, don't.
It's all from the perspective of one who judges.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
When we look at the world around us, should we start with the assumption that things that exist have value that derives from their mere existence?
I voted no because after looking at that grain of sand (among many of the others) lying in front of the pile and slightly right of center, and just below the up-side down fat "Y" formation, I fail to see its value. So, no, starting with the assumption that things that exist have value that derives from their mere existence is silly.

c0e83e8110a79e950a241a0fdbabfebb.jpg



.
 
I voted no because after looking at that grain of sand (among many of the others) lying in front of the pile and slightly right of center, and just below the up-side down fat "Y" formation, I fail to see its value. So, no, starting with the assumption that things that exist have value that derives from their mere existence is silly.

c0e83e8110a79e950a241a0fdbabfebb.jpg



.

Your reasoning is completely fallacious. Heuristics, aphorisms, maxims, etc. can not be refuted or argued against by specific counterexamples be they one or one thousand.

Trying to do so shows a lack of understanding of their function.

It's like saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" is "wrong" because you retuned your fully functioning car engine and made it more powerful.

See "important note" in the OP...
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Your reasoning is completely fallacious. Heuristics, aphorisms, maxims, etc. can not be refuted or argued against by specific counterexamples be they one or one thousand.

Trying to do so shows a lack of understanding of their function.

It's like saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" is "wrong" because you retuned your fully functioning car engine and made it more powerful.

See "important note" in the OP...
You amusing guy---a freshman philosophy 101 student would be my guess---your presumptions illustrating that a little learning can indeed be a dangerous foolish thing. But carry on. I'll be quiet and just watch from the sidelines.
popcorn-and-drink-smiley-emoticon.gif
And thank you for the day brightener. :thumbsup:

.
 
You amusing guy---a freshman philosophy 101 student would be my guess---your presumptions illustrating that a little learning can indeed be a dangerous foolish thing. But carry on. I'll be quiet and just watch from the sidelines.
popcorn-and-drink-smiley-emoticon.gif
And thank you for the day brightener. :thumbsup:

.

Very droll. Rapier. Chapeau :tophat:

Much as I love the "banter" do you have anything relevant to say about the OP?

Just you haven't managed it yet...
 

ronandcarol

Member
Premium Member
Does something have value simply because it exists?
Every human has extreme value. The God who created us came to this earth to save us. He humbled Himself to a horrible death on a cross to save you and me, we have extreme value. When Jesus rose from the grave He defeated death for all who choose to believe and follow Him. Yes, we all have extreme value to have the God of the universe to come and die on a cross to save us!

ronandcarol
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
Does something have value simply because it exists?
Every human has extreme value. The God who created us came to this earth to save us. He humbled Himself to a horrible death on a cross to save you and me, we have extreme value. When Jesus rose from the grave He defeated death for all who choose to believe and follow Him. Yes, we all have extreme value to have the God of the universe to come and die on a cross to save us!

ronandcarol

Including Charles Manson?
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
That is when looking at something currently in existence, it is assumed to be beneficial unless 'proved' otherwise, rather than it is assumed to start from a position of 'zero' and ascribed its value through 'reason' alone. To advocate against something that has existed for a long time would thus require a huge bias in the burden of proof: the case for the status quo or slight change requires less support than the one in favour of fundamental change. Or should an ancient tradition simply start from 'zero' the same as a newly minted idea when the 2 of them are compared?

As an example: Judaism (or other ancient religion) exists and has done for thousands of years, as such it must be performing some kind of positive function in some way. This positive function exists irrespective of our ability to identify, quantify or describe it on 'rational' grounds. Moreover, we should assume that there are aspects of it that we don't understand and factor these into our judgement. Due to our imperfect cognitive abilities, these 'unknown positives' must be assumed to exist, especially in things that have existed a long time, and even more so regarding things (such as religions) that exist in complex systems.
It is a type of realism that we all indulge, barring being self-aware, hence I agree.
 
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