Rainbow Mage
Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
I have heard some say it does. Is this true?
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Does Taoism view homosexuality as bad?
- Thread starter Rainbow Mage
- Start date
dust1n
Zindīq
Nothing from the Tao Te Ching suggests this.
'The Tao doesn't take sides;
it gives birth to both good and evil.
The Master doesn't take sides;
she welcomes both saints and sinners.
The Tao is like a bellows:
it is empty yet infinitely capable.
The more you use it, the more it produces;
the more you talk of it, the less you understand.
Hold on to the center.'
'The Tao doesn't take sides;
it gives birth to both good and evil.
The Master doesn't take sides;
she welcomes both saints and sinners.
The Tao is like a bellows:
it is empty yet infinitely capable.
The more you use it, the more it produces;
the more you talk of it, the less you understand.
Hold on to the center.'
TurkeyOnRye
Well-Known Member
I would steer clear of Taoism if you wish to have any meaningful understanding of Tao.
Would you like to elaborate?
Guitar's Cry
Disciple of Pan
Taoism as a cultural phenomena is more complex than simply the philosophy of Lao Tzu, and seems tied in with forms of alchemy.
The view of sexuality is similar to some tantric ideas of orgasm control, but specifically in men since masculinity is seen in relation to the "yang" of "yin and yang," which is associated with speed and aggression as opposed to the softer, yielding (and feminine) yin. Since male energy is aggressive and used up quickly, female orgasm is preferable. I would imagine that for some who follow this ideology, two men bringing themselves to orgasm would be like lighting a blowtorch in a fireworks factory. (Though I'm sure others--me included--would argue this, suggesting that gender is as elusive as trying to find the bounderies of the Yin and Yang.)
However, Taoism in its purest form would simply accept the act as any other thing in life: a part of the ever-flowing current.
The view of sexuality is similar to some tantric ideas of orgasm control, but specifically in men since masculinity is seen in relation to the "yang" of "yin and yang," which is associated with speed and aggression as opposed to the softer, yielding (and feminine) yin. Since male energy is aggressive and used up quickly, female orgasm is preferable. I would imagine that for some who follow this ideology, two men bringing themselves to orgasm would be like lighting a blowtorch in a fireworks factory. (Though I'm sure others--me included--would argue this, suggesting that gender is as elusive as trying to find the bounderies of the Yin and Yang.)
However, Taoism in its purest form would simply accept the act as any other thing in life: a part of the ever-flowing current.
Antibush5
Active Member
Aparantly if its a masculine man and a feminine man its fine.
Posters above me have basically nailed it, but to expand upon the basic thesis:
The Tao does not separate "good" from "bad." All things are part of the Tao, and all things simply are. Even that which appears at first to be most divergent from the harmony of the Tao is, in fact, part of that harmony, standing in balance to that which stands opposite the divergent action or entity. In this "Taoist" directory, there is a very good post on the subject entitled "The Tao is Amoral" which talks very well about it.
The Tao does not separate "good" from "bad." All things are part of the Tao, and all things simply are. Even that which appears at first to be most divergent from the harmony of the Tao is, in fact, part of that harmony, standing in balance to that which stands opposite the divergent action or entity. In this "Taoist" directory, there is a very good post on the subject entitled "The Tao is Amoral" which talks very well about it.
godischange
Member
Interestingly enough, I run a blog for LGBT teens and wrote an article on just this- an interpretation of the Tao Te Ching in relation to homosexuality, as part of an ongoing discussion of religion and sexuality. I don't hold the pretense of being a master of Taoist philosophy, but the basic precepts still hold.
It is here, if you are interested:
Religion and Sexuality Part III: Taoism (an author’s note) « Forever The Queerest Kids
It is here, if you are interested:
Religion and Sexuality Part III: Taoism (an author’s note) « Forever The Queerest Kids
Scarlett Wampus
psychonaut
I think Guitar's Cry's and Antibush5's comments are interesting. Sexual energy, similar to tantra-like stuff, can play a large part in traditional Taoist spiritual cultivation but that tradition is based on heterosexual relations. I've been curious to see how a gay or lesbian couple interested in Taoist cultivation might adapt but have never had the opportunity to ask. Antibush5, I think you're probably right.
I liked that blog post a lot. I found a blog post from Derek Lin that you might like too. He is quite an influential Taoist in the US and also a lovely guy in my estimation.
Homosexuality and the Tao
Question
Derek, the topic of homosexuality came up the other day as I was discussing the Tao with a group of people. One person said that since homosexual people could not have children naturally, they were against the natural order of the world, and therefore against the Tao.
"It's very simple," he said. "If I put a group of heterosexual people on an island, they will multiply and be fruitful. If I put I put a group of homosexuals there instead, they will die out. So which group is with the Tao and which is against? Isn't it obvious?"
I must say I felt disappointed in hearing this, because I came from a conservative background that condemned homosexuality and hoped the Tao might be different. I need to ask you for a second opinion before I give up completely. Can you confirm that this position against homosexuality is correct according to the Tao?
Answer
What you have described is a fairly common misconception, sometimes expressed by people with a surface-level understanding of the Tao. It seems to make sense at first glance: the male / female pairing is natural, and therefore same-gender pairings must be unnatural. The idea is that the Tao is about yin-yang, not yin-yin or yang-yang.
The first thing to realize when we approach this topic is that while some mainstream religions do condemn homosexuality, the Tao itself does not judge or condemn. The Tao is not human, nor is it a human-like deity, so it can never pass harsh judgements the way that some people do. It is more like natural laws that function without emotional attachments.
The second thing to realize is that there are already myriad things in nature that live out entire lives without producing offspring. If procreation is the yardstick by which to measure naturalness, then one would have to point to all of them as being against the Tao - including heterosexual couples who are infertile or simply do not wish to have children.
The most basic flaw that led to the above conclusion is our incessant focus on the physical. Gender and reproduction are inextricably tied to biology, but is the physical aspect all there is to existence? I would suggest that it is only one aspect of the multidimensional totality. Also, consider the basic truth that the spiritual is far greater than the biological for human beings. One simple example of this is the love between adoptive parents and adopted children. That love is just as real and powerful as anything else. The lack of a biological connection between them makes absolutely no difference at all.
When love exists, nothing else is quite as important, so let us transcend the physical in our thinking. Move to the level of the spiritual and examine the issue there. You'll find that when you strip away all the external layers, the only thing that remains at the core is love in its purest form. This love can express itself in many different ways. That expression, among consenting individuals, flows in perfect alignment with the Tao regardless of the way it manifests.
So is there anything that flows out of alignment with the Tao? Yes, but it has nothing to do with gender or reproductive ability. That which goes against the Tao is the antithesis of love: fear, loathing, hatred. In the material world, we recognize it in one of its many forms as homophobia and prejudice.
Next time people bring up this topic, let them know the truth. What goes with or against the Tao has nothing to do with the gender of your life partner. It has everything to do with our natural wish to manifest our highest, most loving and kindest selves. Let us be careful in handling the distorted ideas that try to take us away from that ideal.
I liked that blog post a lot. I found a blog post from Derek Lin that you might like too. He is quite an influential Taoist in the US and also a lovely guy in my estimation.
Homosexuality and the Tao
Question
Derek, the topic of homosexuality came up the other day as I was discussing the Tao with a group of people. One person said that since homosexual people could not have children naturally, they were against the natural order of the world, and therefore against the Tao.
"It's very simple," he said. "If I put a group of heterosexual people on an island, they will multiply and be fruitful. If I put I put a group of homosexuals there instead, they will die out. So which group is with the Tao and which is against? Isn't it obvious?"
I must say I felt disappointed in hearing this, because I came from a conservative background that condemned homosexuality and hoped the Tao might be different. I need to ask you for a second opinion before I give up completely. Can you confirm that this position against homosexuality is correct according to the Tao?
Answer
What you have described is a fairly common misconception, sometimes expressed by people with a surface-level understanding of the Tao. It seems to make sense at first glance: the male / female pairing is natural, and therefore same-gender pairings must be unnatural. The idea is that the Tao is about yin-yang, not yin-yin or yang-yang.
The first thing to realize when we approach this topic is that while some mainstream religions do condemn homosexuality, the Tao itself does not judge or condemn. The Tao is not human, nor is it a human-like deity, so it can never pass harsh judgements the way that some people do. It is more like natural laws that function without emotional attachments.
The second thing to realize is that there are already myriad things in nature that live out entire lives without producing offspring. If procreation is the yardstick by which to measure naturalness, then one would have to point to all of them as being against the Tao - including heterosexual couples who are infertile or simply do not wish to have children.
The most basic flaw that led to the above conclusion is our incessant focus on the physical. Gender and reproduction are inextricably tied to biology, but is the physical aspect all there is to existence? I would suggest that it is only one aspect of the multidimensional totality. Also, consider the basic truth that the spiritual is far greater than the biological for human beings. One simple example of this is the love between adoptive parents and adopted children. That love is just as real and powerful as anything else. The lack of a biological connection between them makes absolutely no difference at all.
When love exists, nothing else is quite as important, so let us transcend the physical in our thinking. Move to the level of the spiritual and examine the issue there. You'll find that when you strip away all the external layers, the only thing that remains at the core is love in its purest form. This love can express itself in many different ways. That expression, among consenting individuals, flows in perfect alignment with the Tao regardless of the way it manifests.
So is there anything that flows out of alignment with the Tao? Yes, but it has nothing to do with gender or reproductive ability. That which goes against the Tao is the antithesis of love: fear, loathing, hatred. In the material world, we recognize it in one of its many forms as homophobia and prejudice.
Next time people bring up this topic, let them know the truth. What goes with or against the Tao has nothing to do with the gender of your life partner. It has everything to do with our natural wish to manifest our highest, most loving and kindest selves. Let us be careful in handling the distorted ideas that try to take us away from that ideal.
The Tao Teh Ching is written as a guide for rulers and is open to alot of interpretation. For example, one could say that a leader who grants gay equality is minimizing his influence which is good. On the other hand, if he is in a conservative nation that opposes homosexuality, it would be striving too hard which could bring his down fall.
As for individual LGBTQ people, there is nothing necessarily wrong with being gay. Fighting your natural inclinations through denial could be extremely harmful. A tree that can't bend in the wind will break.
A Taoist would consider it important for gay people to simply live their lives, without placing too much concern in how others view them. They would ideally be nonchalant about the political issues, only fighting the battles they can win, ignoring bigots rather than debating with them. (No longer being a Taoist, I don't personally agree with this.)
Taoism often embraces the image of a hermit, so Lao Tzu would possibly approve of living in a "gay ghetto" where you are around people who agree with and support you allowing you to more or less ignore the outside world altogether.
As for individual LGBTQ people, there is nothing necessarily wrong with being gay. Fighting your natural inclinations through denial could be extremely harmful. A tree that can't bend in the wind will break.
A Taoist would consider it important for gay people to simply live their lives, without placing too much concern in how others view them. They would ideally be nonchalant about the political issues, only fighting the battles they can win, ignoring bigots rather than debating with them. (No longer being a Taoist, I don't personally agree with this.)
Taoism often embraces the image of a hermit, so Lao Tzu would possibly approve of living in a "gay ghetto" where you are around people who agree with and support you allowing you to more or less ignore the outside world altogether.
ellenjanuary
Well-Known Member
That's funny. I know these artist-types that won't take apprentices if they have any formal schooling. They're like, "Man, I have to unteach you of all this crap you think you know!"
angrymoose
angrymoose
Lol. I'd say, one should take Taoism with a grain of salt.
That is, don't throw away one's brain and get wrapped up to much.
I think, that its possible to be a Taoist that is open to homosexuality and that the ideas the other poster referred to would lead a modern person to probably realize that homosexuality is natural. Derik Lin, made some very good posts abnout this on his own forum.
I'd not be shocked if some Taoist traditions turn out to be "anti-gay". There are tons upon tons of Taoist traditions over the 1700 years the tradition has existed. (Lao Tzu's book was written long before this.)
angrymoose
angrymoose
chevron1
Active Member
I was answering another thread when I found this one from 2010. In religious sect Taoism such as the Celestial Masters, homosexuality is a sin, but not so in classical Taoism. Classical scripture actually discusses homosexuality as part of the streams of transformation. This passage from the Book Of Lieh Tzu (an expansion of a passage about evolutionary theory in the Book Of Chuang Tzu) is about the diversity of sexual activity and same-sex coupling arises naturally from the stream of change and transformation within Tao:
There is a beast of Shan-yuan which gives birth after conceiving by itself, the lei. There are birds of the rivers and marshes which give birth after looking at each other, the fish-hawks. There is a creature which is solely female, the giant tortoise; and another which is solely male, the little bee. The men and women of Ssŭ impregnate and conceive without intercourse. Hou Chi was born from a great footprint, Yi Yin from a hollow mulberry tree. Dragonflies breed from moisture, animalculae from vinegar.
Graham, A.C., The Book Of Lieh Tzu, New York: Columbia Univ. Press, c. 1990, p. 21.
Bad. But also good.
deci belle
New Member
Hello-- evidently this is my first post, but I must have registered a long time ago, cuz they already had my email address. I haven't been on any forums for year(s?).
Per the OP…
Is it ok to be gay, bi, amoral, hetero, polyamorous, unconventionally asexual, or otherwise? I say it is a matter of choice, whereas others insist they were born whichever way they are currently preferring to express their potentials as such.
At any rate, detachment is key. Sex is sex. Learning to adapt psychic energies relative to vitality in the elementary processes of taoist practice is the means to spiritual (nonpsychological) evolution.
"Find the one and your work is done"; your psychological nature will follow suit~ along with the clusters of circumstantial patterns of preferential sexual expression relative to the personality.
All situations are essentially sexual. The nature of basic existence is dual. It's in the air. Sex is sex. Sex is another word for duality. Emotions are emotions. Psychological identity is what is it. These all relate to ego, the personality's valid functionary; these being an ultimately formidable illusion of created human being. The expression of human refinement in terms of taoist parlance is the sage. Who is the sage? Taoist teaching states that the world is the sage. It's not that far-fetched, but to see reality as such requires a monumental change of perspective of one individual. And who might that be?
The point of taoism is to discover spiritual essential unity by virtue of the differential characteristics of karmic evolution. It's point does not depend of sudden enlightenment– selfless realization only proves the point. In the aftermath of realization, one must still return to tend social obligations. That being the case, why not start now? Using sex is a brilliant strategy.
Situations are themselves the access-point of self-refinement. Situations are each created cycles in and of themselves. Yang builds and switches to yin. Likewise, yin's convergence goes through it's incremental process and the cycle is completed. One yin and one yang is one change. That is the essence of taoist science. That's all there is to taoism in a nutshell.
Does anyone believe that the ancients left it at that? Universal potential is hidden within change. In fact, it is hidden as change. Those who can see Change do not go along with its changes. That's what immortality is. What does this mean? It means that those who see Change gather its potential— which is the point of the taoist sciences of essence and life which is perfected in public everyday ordinary situations, not special energetic exercises in private.
All cloistered regimens are beginners' points of entry, being modes of discipline to align the individual in terms of harmony with the unseen. One should always be wary of cultivating attachment to so-called methods of comfort, i.e.: formal constructs of meditation geared toward the vagaries of personal preference relative to the personality. In the midst of these "special" exercises, always keep a keen eye on objective awareness overseeing subtle attachment.
In terms of taoist alchemy, potential is recognized by virtue of situations themselves, where initially it is base metabolism which is refined. Emotional equilibrium is essential, hence the admonition for detachment. If one can avoid clinging to others as well as one's own psychological patterns, then the natural process of refinement works spontaneously from vitality> energy> spirit without involving psychological emotionalism and intellectualism.
Ultimately, detachment (not denial) serves as an inconceivable, empty vessel which can be said to facilitate sealing the natural alchemic development of potential until it is ripe for release.
So "gathering" potential is only a symbolic euphemism relative to seeing. As well, it is entry-level in each instance of situational evolution in terms of refining oneself by virtue of created cycles of yin and yang. Buddhist teaching states that we use the disease as the medicine.
At the penultimate end of each cycle, release of potential is where spirit is emptied out into openness. None of this entire process requires doing. Taoist teaching states that that which is seen is not to be used; that which is unseen is what is used. In each case it is a matter of non-doing.
Sexual preference is immaterial. But sex must come from somewhere. That place is what Chuangtzi calls the "homeland of nothing whatsoever." He says to rest there. When you see your nature, you realize the erotic spark IS your nature— or at least it is the created aspect of its light when yin and yang fuse. It's no wonder so many people (with the fabulous energy to do so) chase after sexual encounters with zeal and crave sexual unity in whatever guise it is manifest.
What matters above all is impersonal (open) sincerity. Granted, what I have presented here is quite a stretch for most people. It's not a bad thing to hear it, though. Some day there are those who will assume the will to enlightenment as the endless journey to realize the totality of the being that is going to die.
So if anyone just wanted to know if it's ok to have homosexual relations~ your guess is as good as mine …heehee!!❤︎❤︎
ed note: typo; added line "sex is another word for duality."
Per the OP…
Is it ok to be gay, bi, amoral, hetero, polyamorous, unconventionally asexual, or otherwise? I say it is a matter of choice, whereas others insist they were born whichever way they are currently preferring to express their potentials as such.
At any rate, detachment is key. Sex is sex. Learning to adapt psychic energies relative to vitality in the elementary processes of taoist practice is the means to spiritual (nonpsychological) evolution.
"Find the one and your work is done"; your psychological nature will follow suit~ along with the clusters of circumstantial patterns of preferential sexual expression relative to the personality.
All situations are essentially sexual. The nature of basic existence is dual. It's in the air. Sex is sex. Sex is another word for duality. Emotions are emotions. Psychological identity is what is it. These all relate to ego, the personality's valid functionary; these being an ultimately formidable illusion of created human being. The expression of human refinement in terms of taoist parlance is the sage. Who is the sage? Taoist teaching states that the world is the sage. It's not that far-fetched, but to see reality as such requires a monumental change of perspective of one individual. And who might that be?
The point of taoism is to discover spiritual essential unity by virtue of the differential characteristics of karmic evolution. It's point does not depend of sudden enlightenment– selfless realization only proves the point. In the aftermath of realization, one must still return to tend social obligations. That being the case, why not start now? Using sex is a brilliant strategy.
Situations are themselves the access-point of self-refinement. Situations are each created cycles in and of themselves. Yang builds and switches to yin. Likewise, yin's convergence goes through it's incremental process and the cycle is completed. One yin and one yang is one change. That is the essence of taoist science. That's all there is to taoism in a nutshell.
Does anyone believe that the ancients left it at that? Universal potential is hidden within change. In fact, it is hidden as change. Those who can see Change do not go along with its changes. That's what immortality is. What does this mean? It means that those who see Change gather its potential— which is the point of the taoist sciences of essence and life which is perfected in public everyday ordinary situations, not special energetic exercises in private.
All cloistered regimens are beginners' points of entry, being modes of discipline to align the individual in terms of harmony with the unseen. One should always be wary of cultivating attachment to so-called methods of comfort, i.e.: formal constructs of meditation geared toward the vagaries of personal preference relative to the personality. In the midst of these "special" exercises, always keep a keen eye on objective awareness overseeing subtle attachment.
In terms of taoist alchemy, potential is recognized by virtue of situations themselves, where initially it is base metabolism which is refined. Emotional equilibrium is essential, hence the admonition for detachment. If one can avoid clinging to others as well as one's own psychological patterns, then the natural process of refinement works spontaneously from vitality> energy> spirit without involving psychological emotionalism and intellectualism.
Ultimately, detachment (not denial) serves as an inconceivable, empty vessel which can be said to facilitate sealing the natural alchemic development of potential until it is ripe for release.
So "gathering" potential is only a symbolic euphemism relative to seeing. As well, it is entry-level in each instance of situational evolution in terms of refining oneself by virtue of created cycles of yin and yang. Buddhist teaching states that we use the disease as the medicine.
At the penultimate end of each cycle, release of potential is where spirit is emptied out into openness. None of this entire process requires doing. Taoist teaching states that that which is seen is not to be used; that which is unseen is what is used. In each case it is a matter of non-doing.
Sexual preference is immaterial. But sex must come from somewhere. That place is what Chuangtzi calls the "homeland of nothing whatsoever." He says to rest there. When you see your nature, you realize the erotic spark IS your nature— or at least it is the created aspect of its light when yin and yang fuse. It's no wonder so many people (with the fabulous energy to do so) chase after sexual encounters with zeal and crave sexual unity in whatever guise it is manifest.
What matters above all is impersonal (open) sincerity. Granted, what I have presented here is quite a stretch for most people. It's not a bad thing to hear it, though. Some day there are those who will assume the will to enlightenment as the endless journey to realize the totality of the being that is going to die.
So if anyone just wanted to know if it's ok to have homosexual relations~ your guess is as good as mine …heehee!!❤︎❤︎
ed note: typo; added line "sex is another word for duality."
crowfeather
One
You can do as you please. This is the nature of freewill.
This does not mean, however, that whatever you do is free from consequences.
This does not mean, however, that whatever you do is free from consequences.