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Does the Bible teach incarnation?

David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
David, I hope you don't see this as a cop-out, but I'm going to just copy and paste something I wrote up several years back for a thread in the LDS DIR. This was just part of a larger piece I wrote on the LDS understanding of God's Plan of Salvation for His children (i.e. all of mankind). I numbered the statements so that if people had questions, they could specifically reference the item they wanted clarification on.

A1. God the Eternal Father is a glorified, immortal being of flesh and bone. While He has the appearance of a man, His body is perfect and incorruptible.

A2. Co-eternal with God was a form of highly refined matter that has been described as "the light of truth." Latter-day Saint scriptures refer to it as "Intelligences." It is neither created nor made.

A3. God took this intelligent matter and from it created the spirits of all who would someday dwell on this earth and of some who would not. A spirit is a conscious entity, visible to God, but comprised of such highly refined matter that human eyes cannot see it.

A4. These spirit creations were known to God as His spirit sons and daughters. They knew Him as their Father.

A5. Among them were two who stood out as incomprehensibly superior to the others. Like their Father, they were perfect in every respect. God the Father called His firstborn spirit son "Jehovah." He would come to be known to billions as Jesus Christ. His other perfect son would be known as the Holy Ghost. Together these three constituted "the Godhead,
" three divine beings who were one in will, purpose, mind and heart.

A6. God was the archetypal man, the Man of Holiness. He was the perfect role model and all of His spirit children looked to Him with deep reverence and respect. It was their desire to be like Him in every way.

A7. God called a heavenly council and presented a plan to His spirit children. All were present, and shouted for joy upon hearing the announcement.

A8. The plan became known as "The Plan of Salvation." God would create a world for them apart from their heavenly home. All who wished to participate would be given the opportunity to come to Earth, to be born to earthly parents and to obtain a mortal body. They would have no memory of their pre-mortal existence.

A9. As part of their mortality, they would be tried and tested. Prophets would be sent to guide them, but they would have to learn to walk in faith and to distinguish between good and evil. This knowledge was essential in order for them to someday become like their Father in Heaven.

A10. There was, however, one caveat. After their time on Earth was finished, they could return to His presence only if they were without sin. He would not look upon sin with the least degree of allowance. Sin would be seen as a debt that could only be forgiven if paid in full by someone who owed no debt Himself.

A11. Jehovah, our elder Brother, stepped forward and said, "Here I am. Send me." With a love so absolute we could not comprehend it, He offered to take upon Himself the guilt we would incur during our mortality and to pay the price required by the Father for our forgiveness. The price would be His own blood. All of the glory, He insisted, would be the Father's. He wanted nothing but the privilege of helping His Father to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of mankind.

A12. Our salvation would be contingent upon our recognizing Him as our Savior and doing our best to keep His commandments, repenting as necessary, because we would inevitably sin. Each of us would be given the freedom to choose for ourselves.

A13. Another of God's spirit sons stepped forward at this point. His name was Lucifer. Once known as the "Son of the Morning," he was full of animosity towards his brother, Jehovah and toward their Father. He offered an alternate plan. His plan took away our agency or the right to choose for ourselves. We would each obtain a mortal body, but the choice to obey or to disobey, and the privilege of learning to discern between good and evil would be taken away from us. Having lived perfect lives, but not by choice, we would all return to God's presence. The glory would be forever his, not his Father's.

A14. The Father chose Jehovah to be "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Lucifer, proud and rebellious, turned against his Father and vowed to turn as many of his fellow spirit siblings as possible against Him, too.

A15. A "War in Heaven" ensued. All of God's spirit children chose sides. Some fought with Lucifer for the right to participate in the plan as he had suggested. Others fought on the side of Jehovah, led by the archangel, Michael.

A16. In the end, Michael and his angels (i.e. all of us who would someday be born) defeated Lucifer and his angels (the remaining third of the host of heaven). Because of their willful rebellion against God, Lucifer and those who had sided with him were cast out of Heaven. They would never again have the privilege of being known as God's children. They would never receive mortal bodies. And in the end, they would be cast into Outer Darkness forever.

A17. The rest of us (i.e. every human being who ever has been born or will be born) rejoiced, knowing that the Plan was about to commence. Every one of us chose to come to Earth. There are no exceptions.

A18. Under the direction of His Father, and aided by the archangel, Michael, Jehovah created our Earth and the universe in which we live.

This entire sequence of events took place before "the beginning," since the Bible tells us only what happened with the creation as "the beginning." We have learned these things through modern revelation to living prophets. It is our belief that they were once understood and believed by all Christians, but were lost over time, following the deaths of Christ's apostles. The Bible alludes to a few of these points, but discusses none of them in any depth. I've always found it interesting to learn of early non-biblical Christian documents that teach much the same things as I've just explained. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

I would never accuse you of copping out. I appreciate you very much Katz. Thank you :)
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
David, I hope you don't see this as a cop-out, but I'm going to just copy and paste something I wrote up several years back for a thread in the LDS DIR. This was just part of a larger piece I wrote on the LDS understanding of God's Plan of Salvation for His children (i.e. all of mankind). I numbered the statements so that if people had questions, they could specifically reference the item they wanted clarification on.

A1. God the Eternal Father is a glorified, immortal being of flesh and bone. While He has the appearance of a man, His body is perfect and incorruptible.

A2. Co-eternal with God was a form of highly refined matter that has been described as "the light of truth." Latter-day Saint scriptures refer to it as "Intelligences." It is neither created nor made.

A3. God took this intelligent matter and from it created the spirits of all who would someday dwell on this earth and of some who would not. A spirit is a conscious entity, visible to God, but comprised of such highly refined matter that human eyes cannot see it.

A4. These spirit creations were known to God as His spirit sons and daughters. They knew Him as their Father.

A5. Among them were two who stood out as incomprehensibly superior to the others. Like their Father, they were perfect in every respect. God the Father called His firstborn spirit son "Jehovah." He would come to be known to billions as Jesus Christ. His other perfect son would be known as the Holy Ghost. Together these three constituted "the Godhead,
" three divine beings who were one in will, purpose, mind and heart.

A6. God was the archetypal man, the Man of Holiness. He was the perfect role model and all of His spirit children looked to Him with deep reverence and respect. It was their desire to be like Him in every way.

A7. God called a heavenly council and presented a plan to His spirit children. All were present, and shouted for joy upon hearing the announcement.

A8. The plan became known as "The Plan of Salvation." God would create a world for them apart from their heavenly home. All who wished to participate would be given the opportunity to come to Earth, to be born to earthly parents and to obtain a mortal body. They would have no memory of their pre-mortal existence.

A9. As part of their mortality, they would be tried and tested. Prophets would be sent to guide them, but they would have to learn to walk in faith and to distinguish between good and evil. This knowledge was essential in order for them to someday become like their Father in Heaven.

A10. There was, however, one caveat. After their time on Earth was finished, they could return to His presence only if they were without sin. He would not look upon sin with the least degree of allowance. Sin would be seen as a debt that could only be forgiven if paid in full by someone who owed no debt Himself.

A11. Jehovah, our elder Brother, stepped forward and said, "Here I am. Send me." With a love so absolute we could not comprehend it, He offered to take upon Himself the guilt we would incur during our mortality and to pay the price required by the Father for our forgiveness. The price would be His own blood. All of the glory, He insisted, would be the Father's. He wanted nothing but the privilege of helping His Father to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of mankind.

A12. Our salvation would be contingent upon our recognizing Him as our Savior and doing our best to keep His commandments, repenting as necessary, because we would inevitably sin. Each of us would be given the freedom to choose for ourselves.

A13. Another of God's spirit sons stepped forward at this point. His name was Lucifer. Once known as the "Son of the Morning," he was full of animosity towards his brother, Jehovah and toward their Father. He offered an alternate plan. His plan took away our agency or the right to choose for ourselves. We would each obtain a mortal body, but the choice to obey or to disobey, and the privilege of learning to discern between good and evil would be taken away from us. Having lived perfect lives, but not by choice, we would all return to God's presence. The glory would be forever his, not his Father's.

A14. The Father chose Jehovah to be "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Lucifer, proud and rebellious, turned against his Father and vowed to turn as many of his fellow spirit siblings as possible against Him, too.

A15. A "War in Heaven" ensued. All of God's spirit children chose sides. Some fought with Lucifer for the right to participate in the plan as he had suggested. Others fought on the side of Jehovah, led by the archangel, Michael.

A16. In the end, Michael and his angels (i.e. all of us who would someday be born) defeated Lucifer and his angels (the remaining third of the host of heaven). Because of their willful rebellion against God, Lucifer and those who had sided with him were cast out of Heaven. They would never again have the privilege of being known as God's children. They would never receive mortal bodies. And in the end, they would be cast into Outer Darkness forever.

A17. The rest of us (i.e. every human being who ever has been born or will be born) rejoiced, knowing that the Plan was about to commence. Every one of us chose to come to Earth. There are no exceptions.

A18. Under the direction of His Father, and aided by the archangel, Michael, Jehovah created our Earth and the universe in which we live.

This entire sequence of events took place before "the beginning," since the Bible tells us only what happened with the creation as "the beginning." We have learned these things through modern revelation to living prophets. It is our belief that they were once understood and believed by all Christians, but were lost over time, following the deaths of Christ's apostles. The Bible alludes to a few of these points, but discusses none of them in any depth. I've always found it interesting to learn of early non-biblical Christian documents that teach much the same things as I've just explained. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

Noting your closing comments there Katzpur, and seeing as how this is a Biblical debate forum, I guess it is pointless to ask for scriptural reference that do not exist outside your own Book of Mormon. Since you admit that the Bible discusses "none of them in depth" could you at least provide any scriptural references that you think discuss them at all?

"Allusion" is a somewhat vague term.....not something you can base a doctrine upon. Did these "non-biblical Christian documents" somehow miss becoming a part of God's word by accident?....meaning that God had nothing to do with the current Bible canon that most of the world believes and accepts as the word of God? Does that mean that there were no reliable scriptures available to man until Joseph Smith was visited by an angel in the woods and given the 'real scriptures'? (which do not back up the existing Bible at all btw, except where JS copied them word for word in archaic English and included them in the BoM)

The Greek scriptures contain the teachings of Christ and his apostles, which are included in the Bible because it is the "inspired" word of God. (2 Tim 3:16, 17) They are verifiable because they talk about real people whose history is well documented...the people spoken about in the BoM are missing from history because there is no real proof that they ever existed. Can you explain that?
Can the Book of Mormon claim divine inspiration when it contradicts the Bible and speaks about fictitious people? It takes blind faith to believe such things, when your whole religion is based on the testimony of one man who had no witnesses to the event that he claimed happened to him.

Gal 1:6-9:
"6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:


7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.


8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.


9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."
(KJV)
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member

Back it up with the Bible then. Show me the words "immortal soul" anywhere in the scriptures. They are not used together in a single sentence in any part of the Bible.
There is no such thing as an immortal soul. This idea was used by the devil to promote the first lie he ever told..."you surely will not die"......yet God told Adam that he surely would. He never mentioned heaven or hell...just death. (Gen 3:19)
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Noting your closing comments there Katzpur, and seeing as how this is a Biblical debate forum, I guess it is pointless to ask for scriptural reference that do not exist outside your own Book of Mormon. Since you admit that the Bible discusses "none of them in depth" could you at least provide any scriptural references that you think discuss them at all?
Not for you, I couldn't. And the rest of your post should make it clear to everyone else who may be following this thread as to why I won't. I don't bother casting my pearls before swine.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting:
The Soul that rises with us, our life's Star,
Hath had elsewhere its setting,
And cometh from afar:
Not in entire forgetfulness,
And not in utter nakedness,
But trailing clouds of glory do we come
From God, who is our home:
Heaven lies about us in our infancy - William Wordsworth

http://en.fairmormon.org/Plan_of_salvation/Pre-mortal_existence
I think many people over the ages have had the innate sense that they came to earth from a heavenly home. Not all of them have expressed it as beautifully as Wordsworth did, though.
 

David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Back it up with the Bible then. Show me the words "immortal soul" anywhere in the scriptures. They are not used together in a single sentence in any part of the Bible.
There is no such thing as an immortal soul. This idea was used by the devil to promote the first lie he ever told..."you surely will not die"......yet God told Adam that he surely would. He never mentioned heaven or hell...just death. (Gen 3:19)

You and I both know that whatever bible verses I provide you will not accept. Such as "absent from the body present with the lord" and so on. I don't mind honest discussion with people that come from different backgrounds than me. Heck I even learn something sometimes. But when you enter that discussion so convinced of the superiority of your own view with no room for debate or possible personal error. ....then it is an exercise in futility bordering on proselytizing.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
You and I both know that whatever bible verses I provide you will not accept. Such as "absent from the body present with the lord" and so on. I don't mind honest discussion with people that come from different backgrounds than me. Heck I even learn something sometimes. But when you enter that discussion so convinced of the superiority of your own view with no room for debate or possible personal error. ....then it is an exercise in futility bordering on proselytizing.
I couldn't have said it better.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Not for you, I couldn't. And the rest of your post should make it clear to everyone else who may be following this thread as to why I won't. I don't bother casting my pearls before swine.

Real pearls, Katzpur, or imitation ones? If there were real pearls, you could defend your beliefs scripturally, but it appears that you cannot, as opposed to will not.
If what you believe is in the Bible then please tell us the scriptures that back them up. Otherwise what are you doing in a Biblical debate forum? This is not a DIR.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
You and I both know that whatever bible verses I provide you will not accept. Such as "absent from the body present with the lord" and so on. I don't mind honest discussion with people that come from different backgrounds than me. Heck I even learn something sometimes. But when you enter that discussion so convinced of the superiority of your own view with no room for debate or possible personal error. ....then it is an exercise in futility bordering on proselytizing.

Do you believe that Jesus taught us an ambiguous faith David 1967? Are we left to ponder the meaning of what he taught as if he was not clear about things? It wasn't Jesus who messed up Christianity and divided it up into literally thousands of sects....men did this down through the centuries. Before you facepalm again, should you not at least check out the validity of what the Bible teaches as opposed to what the churches teach? They are not the same. The weeds that Jesus foretold took root just as he said they would, yet people behave as if they were planted only a century ago...when they were planted many centuries ago. Christendom is not Biblical Christianity....it is a counterfeit designed to create confusion, not unity.

Do you you think we are supposed to grope around in the dark and just bounce ideas off each other? Is that the Christianity Jesus promoted? I don't think so.
Confidence in what we believe is called faith, not superiority. The Bible has the answers if we bother to ask the right questions.

If you knew what Paul was talking about when he spoke of being "absent from the body, but present with the Lord" you would know that he was speaking about the spiritual resurrection that was promised to all those who will rule with Christ in heaven. (Rev 20:6) They are finished with their fleshly body when they die, but Paul said they must "sleep" and wait for Christ to call them out of their graves and join him in heaven. This was not to happen until his return. (1 Thess 4:13-17) "Sleeping in death" is what the scriptures teach, not immortality of the soul. That was picked up from the pagan Greeks. The Jews did not believe it, so Jesus did not teach it.

Bodies of flesh cannot exist in heaven, (1 Cor 15:50) so like Jesus, those with the "heavenly calling" (Heb 3:1) are raised in a spirit body in order to dwell in the presence of God. (1 Cor 15:42-45)
All you need to do is check the scriptures for yourself. Can you do that please.....?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Real pearls, Katzpur, or imitation ones? If there were real pearls, you could defend your beliefs scripturally, but it appears that you cannot, as opposed to will not.
Real pearls, real swine.
If what you believe is in the Bible then please tell us the scriptures that back them up. Otherwise what are you doing in a Biblical debate forum? This is not a DIR.
You're a slow learner, aren't you Deeje? How many times do I need to tell you that I am not interested in talking to you? If Walter Russell or David has questions for me, I will be happy to answer them. Deal with it.
 

David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Do you believe that Jesus taught us an ambiguous faith David 1967? Are we left to ponder the meaning of what he taught as if he was not clear about things? It wasn't Jesus who messed up Christianity and divided it up into literally thousands of sects....men did this down through the centuries. Before you facepalm again, should you not at least check out the validity of what the Bible teaches as opposed to what the churches teach? They are not the same. The weeds that Jesus foretold took root just as he said they would, yet people behave as if they were planted only a century ago...when they were planted many centuries ago. Christendom is not Biblical Christianity....it is a counterfeit designed to create confusion, not unity.

Do you you think we are supposed to grope around in the dark and just bounce ideas off each other? Is that the Christianity Jesus promoted? I don't think so.
Confidence in what we believe is called faith, not superiority. The Bible has the answers if we bother to ask the right questions.

If you knew what Paul was talking about when he spoke of being "absent from the body, but present with the Lord" you would know that he was speaking about the spiritual resurrection that was promised to all those who will rule with Christ in heaven. (Rev 20:6) They are finished with their fleshly body when they die, but Paul said they must "sleep" and wait for Christ to call them out of their graves and join him in heaven. This was not to happen until his return. (1 Thess 4:13-17) "Sleeping in death" is what the scriptures teach, not immortality of the soul. That was picked up from the pagan Greeks. The Jews did not believe it, so Jesus did not teach it.

Bodies of flesh cannot exist in heaven, (1 Cor 15:50) so like Jesus, those with the "heavenly calling" (Heb 3:1) are raised in a spirit body in order to dwell in the presence of God. (1 Cor 15:42-45)
All you need to do is check the scriptures for yourself. Can you do that please.....?

Sorry, but since I don't have an issue of the Watchtower to tell me what it really says, I would no doubt just get it wrong anyway. So what's the point right? :rolleyes:
 
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David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Real pearls, Katzpur, or imitation ones? If there were real pearls, you could defend your beliefs scripturally, but it appears that you cannot, as opposed to will not.
If what you believe is in the Bible then please tell us the scriptures that back them up. Otherwise what are you doing in a Biblical debate forum? This is not a DIR.

Polite debate without attacking or belittling another's sincerely held beliefs would better inspire conversation.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Real pearls, real swine.

I wonder who Jesus thinks the real pearls and swine are? :( His opinion is, after all, the only one that matters, isn't that true?....so where do we find Jesus teaching the beliefs that you are promoting here? It's not just for me Katzpur. Aren't people entitled to know if you can back up what you believe with the Bible? Isn't this what debate is? Why are you running away from the opportunity to prove that what you believe was actually taught by Jesus Christ...the one you claim to serve?

You're a slow learner, aren't you Deeje?

Why? Because I asked for scriptural proof of your assertions in a Biblical debate forum? Someone here appears to be a slow learner....:confused:

How many times do I need to tell you that I am not interested in talking to you?

My questions were not just for my benefit. There are many readers here who do not post, so do it for them.

If Walter Russell or David has questions for me, I will be happy to answer them. Deal with it.
Deal with what? Your refusal to provide some scriptural proof for what you believe?

Invite them to the LDS DIR where you will be safe from those impossible to answer questions, that are perfectly valid in this forum.

Heaven forbid that anyone should require Biblical back up for beliefs posted in a debate forum specifically for Biblical discussion...too much to ask apparently? o_O
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I wonder who Jesus thinks the real pearls and swine are? :( His opinion is, after all, the only one that matters, isn't that true?....so where do we find Jesus teaching the beliefs that you are promoting here? It's not just for me Katzpur. Aren't people entitled to know if you can back up what you believe with the Bible? Isn't this what debate is? Why are you running away from the opportunity to prove that what you believe was actually taught by Jesus Christ...the one you claim to serve?
I don't believe we serve Jesus Christ by trying to out-debate one another. And I especially don't believe we serve Him by bad-mouthing other people's beliefs.

Why? Because I asked for scriptural proof of your assertions in a Biblical debate forum? Someone here appears to be a slow learner....:confused:
How many times do I have to repeat myself, JayJayDeeje?

My questions were not just for my benefit. There are many readers here who do not post, so do it for them.
I wasn't born yesterday, honey. I know when I'm being baited. I know that you are absolutely incapable of just sticking to the topic at hand. You absolutely do not have the self-discipline to stick to the subject being discussed. Instead, you have to throw in a bunch of random opinions about Mormonism or its founder. No one with an ounce of sense would want to have a conversation with someone who does that. Besides, there's no reason for me to answer your questions for someone else's benefit. As I've already said, two or three times, Walter or David don't seem to have any pressing concerns or they'd be asking questions themselves.

Deal with what? Your refusal to provide some scriptural proof for what you believe?
My refusal to try to have a civil conversation with you.

Invite them to the LDS DIR where you will be safe from those impossible to answer questions, that are perfectly valid in this forum.
Yeah, well I didn't do that, did I? They can ask their questions on this forum, on this thread, and I'll answer them.

Heaven forbid that anyone should require Biblical back up for beliefs posted in a debate forum specifically for Biblical discussion...too much to ask apparently? o_O
Yup, when that "someone" is you, it's far too much to ask. If it's pretty much anyone else, it's not too much to ask at all.

Besides, someone mentioned once, just before she took a brief leave of absence from the forum, that JWs aren't supposed to participate in online debates. I thought you were more committed to the what's it called -- Governing Body? -- than that. You should be ashamed of yourself for disobeying the mighty purveyors of the Watchtower and their Jehovah-God.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Sorry, but since I don't have an issue of the Watchtower to tell me what it really says, I would no doubt just get it wrong anyway. So what's the point right? :rolleyes:

In answer to that I would like to say that it is the Bible itself that tells me what it really says. The whole Bible tells one story and it does not teach what Christendom believes.

I would like you to put yourself in the shoes of two groups of people that the Bible speaks about. The first group are those who lived in Noah's day.
Noah preached to those people everyday by either word or by his actions in constructing the ark. How many people believed him when he issued the warning about what God was going to do? It took decades to complete the structure and people watched it take shape, but instead of listening to this "crackpot", they ridiculed him and derided him for his faithful obedience to his God. How many of them ended up wishing they had taken more notice?
But why were the people so confident that they were right and Noah was wrong?

The second group to consider are the Jews of Jesus' day. The Jewish religious leaders had held power over the people for almost 500 years between the time of God's last prophet Malachi, and the appearance of the Messiah in 29C.E. Under their leadership, Judaism had gone completely off the rails (again), but it was no surprise because the history of God's nation is a roller coaster of sin, punishment, obedience and blessing...followed by more sin, punishment, repentance, obedience and blessing. Their history ends in unforgivable sin with the execution of their Messiah. With that history in mind, what did Jesus find when he began his ministry?

Here was the son of God, offering to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" an opportunity to become a disciple and repudiate everything that the religious leaders had taught their flock.
What was the reason why the "sheep" became "lost" in the first place? Why did only a small number of Jews accept Jesus as Messiah? Wasn't it because the Pharisees had built up an expectation about what the Messiah would do when he came? When Jesus didn't fit that mold, the one they created, he was rejected by them all. They were so confident of their position that they even cursed themselves and their children with his blood when they illegally had him executed. (Matt 27:24-26)

These two circumstances demonstrate the power of popular opinion, used by the devil to mislead the masses away from the worship of the true God.
Do you think he can't do it again? (1 John 5:19)

Polite debate without attacking or belittling another's sincerely held beliefs would better inspire conversation.

Polite debate is a nice idea, but when defensive or "catty" comments are substituted for scriptural discussion, then we have a problem.
Excuses do not replace truth...excuses don't answer the questions.

When people ask me to back up what I say with the Bible, it is my privilege to do so. If I can't, then why am I here?
Why is it impolite to ask for scriptural proof for what someone promotes as truth. Surely the Bible has to be the arbiter of what is true? Not just selected bits but the entirety of what the scriptures teach form one set of beliefs, not thousands. So what did Jesus actually teach? Do you know?

Read through the list of beliefs that Katzpur has posted and ask the honest questions....how many of these things can be found in the Bible? You will notice that there is not a single scriptural reference in the whole thing. Perhaps you can ask her why that is?
 

David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
In answer to that I would like to say that it is the Bible itself that tells me what it really says. The whole Bible tells one story and it does not teach what Christendom believes.

I would like you to put yourself in the shoes of two groups of people that the Bible speaks about. The first group are those who lived in Noah's day.
Noah preached to those people everyday by either word or by his actions in constructing the ark. How many people believed him when he issued the warning about what God was going to do? It took decades to complete the structure and people watched it take shape, but instead of listening to this "crackpot", they ridiculed him and derided him for his faithful obedience to his God. How many of them ended up wishing they had taken more notice?
But why were the people so confident that they were right and Noah was wrong?

The second group to consider are the Jews of Jesus' day. The Jewish religious leaders had held power over the people for almost 500 years between the time of God's last prophet Malachi, and the appearance of the Messiah in 29C.E. Under their leadership, Judaism had gone completely off the rails (again), but it was no surprise because the history of God's nation is a roller coaster of sin, punishment, obedience and blessing...followed by more sin, punishment, repentance, obedience and blessing. Their history ends in unforgivable sin with the execution of their Messiah. With that history in mind, what did Jesus find when he began his ministry?

Here was the son of God, offering to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" an opportunity to become a disciple and repudiate everything that the religious leaders had taught their flock.
What was the reason why the "sheep" became "lost" in the first place? Why did only a small number of Jews accept Jesus as Messiah? Wasn't it because the Pharisees had built up an expectation about what the Messiah would do when he came? When Jesus didn't fit that mold, the one they created, he was rejected by them all. They were so confident of their position that they even cursed themselves and their children with his blood when they illegally had him executed. (Matt 27:24-26)

These two circumstances demonstrate the power of popular opinion, used by the devil to mislead the masses away from the worship of the true God.
Do you think he can't do it again? (1 John 5:19)



Polite debate is a nice idea, but when defensive or "catty" comments are substituted for scriptural discussion, then we have a problem.
Excuses do not replace truth...excuses don't answer the questions.

When people ask me to back up what I say with the Bible, it is my privilege to do so. If I can't, then why am I here?
Why is it impolite to ask for scriptural proof for what someone promotes as truth. Surely the Bible has to be the arbiter of what is true? Not just selected bits but the entirety of what the scriptures teach form one set of beliefs, not thousands. So what did Jesus actually teach? Do you know?

Read through the list of beliefs that Katzpur has posted and ask the honest questions....how many of these things can be found in the Bible? You will notice that there is not a single scriptural reference in the whole thing. Perhaps you can ask her why that is?

Deeje, seriously. Let me be clear. I'm not here to try and tear apart your personal faith. Long ago I came to grips with the fact that not everyone shares the same opinions that I do. And I am very comfortable with that. What I joined this forum for is to learn about the beliefs of others by conversation with them. I am not here to try and convince anyone that my way is somehow superior to theirs. In fact I view myself as very much a work in progress with numerous imperfections. And BTW, I'm perfectly comfortable asking Katz anything about her faith. No problem at all.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
@David 1967 It is not my job to tear apart anyone's personal faith either. What a person chooses to believe is entirely up to them. What I am here to do is to discuss the Bible in a section of this site where debate is open. If someone claims to be a Christian and they post in a section for "Biblical Debate" such as this, then I expect that they will be able to provide the "biblical" proof for what they believe. That way the beliefs can be checked by anyone interested enough to look up the cited scriptures for themselves. This is all I asked for.

I have no personal beef with Katzpur but I do have issues with her beliefs that claim to be associated with the same Jesus Christ that is spoken about in the Bible.
When someone misrepresents the Biblical Jesus and presents fallacy as fact, claiming things Jesus never taught, then I believe I have a right to challenge it and ask for proof.

If someone challenges me and I have the answers from the Bible, I will deem it a privilege to have the opportunity to tell the world, not hide behind some personal vendetta to obscure the fact that nothing I said was actually anything close to what the Bible teaches. This is not a LDS DIR, so Katzpur should be able to answer the questions asked about what she posted. It is open to debate, but as usual, it seems that those who can't defend, attack.

If you want to discuss LDS beliefs, without debate, then may I suggest that you speak with her in the correct forum. (LDS DIR)

Informed choice is the only one worth having....so how does one make an informed choice about anything without all the information?
As far as I am aware, this forum is for all views on things biblical.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
JayJayDeeje, there is no rule stating that a person must respond to every post in which someone asks him a question. What part of that doesn't make sense to you? David has made it clear that he will ask me anything he wants to, and he knows perfectly well that he is free to do so on this or any other thread. I have made it clear that I have no interest in talking to you at all. You are wasting your time trying to back either of us into a corner. I don't know why you are so determined to do so.
 
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