Does the Existence of Mathematics Depend on the Existence of the Universe?

[ChristineM]

I'll stop correcting you now.
Don't want staff getting furious over derailment.

You still here?

And i thought we were discussing the significance and loneliness of numbers,thats maths(ish) aint it?

 

[PureX]

Yes. Mathematics is a conceptual language that we humans use to help us understand (quantify) our experience of the universe. It exists because we exist, and we exist because the universe exists. So mathematics is dependent upon the existence of the universe.

 

[robocop (actually)]

Does the existence of mathematics depend on the existence of the universe, or does mathematics represent something that could at least conceivably exist independent of any physical reality?

Why or why not?




BONUS QUESTION: Correctly guess Rival's favorite sex toy and her preferred color for it.

(Hint: It can be argued the human brain is the sexiest sex toy of all, and a healthy one is typically pink-grey.)

Knowledge of mathematics is a configuration of the "living." And we need life for a Universe. No Universe, no math.

 

[crossfire]

lol. Ask an engineer, then ask a technician.

Pure mathematics might be relegated to Plato's World of Forms, which cannot perfectly manifest in our physical reality. You cannot draw a "perfect" circle because such a representation would have to be free from any quantum elements, but you can easily imagine the concept of a perfect circle.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

This documentary proves me correct....

Wait...did we just catch a glimpse of Mrs. Revoltingest?

 

[Revoltingest]

Wait...did we just catch a glimpse of Mrs. Revoltingest?

She's invisible.
So you didn't.

 

[PureX]

lol. Ask an engineer, then ask a technician.

Pure mathematics might be relegated to Plato's World of Forms, which cannot perfectly manifest in our physical reality. You cannot draw a "perfect" circle because such a representation would have to be free from any quantum elements, but you can easily imagine the concept of a perfect circle.

The interesting thing about this is that the imagined perfect circle then does "exist" in the universe, ... as a metaphysical conception; transcendent of the physical laws and limitations that generated it.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Does the existence of mathematics depend on the existence of the universe, or does mathematics represent something that could at least conceivably exist independent of any physical reality?

Mathematics involve relationships, and so require a subject to define and measure them. I can say 1+1=2 only because I have defined "1" and put it into a relationship with something else also "1" and defined this relationship as "2."

BONUS QUESTION: Correctly guess Rival's favorite sex toy and her preferred color for it.

(Hint: It can be argued the human brain is the sexiest sex toy of all, and a healthy one is typically pink-grey.)

Shibari rope, color unimportant as long as it is used by a confident hand.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

She's invisible.
So you didn't.

Gotcha! (Wink, wink.)

 

[Skwim]

Does the existence of mathematics depend on the existence of the universe, or does mathematics represent something that could at least conceivably exist independent of any physical reality?

Yes

Why or why not?

Like all sciences, as a science of number, quantity, and space mathematics depends on sentient creatures to carry it out, and sentient creatures require the existence of a universe in which to operate.,


.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yes
Like all sciences, as a science of number, quantity, and space mathematics depends on sentient creatures to carry it out, and sentient creatures require the existence of a universe in which to operate.,
.

Let's do a thought experiment.....
We see particular postulates & structures in mathematics.
Suppose our universe ceases.
Suppose another universe arises. It could have different
physics, but we'll assume that intelligent life ensues.
Would they develop mathematics?
Would it have the same postulates & structures?
If so, this would point to existence independent of a universe.

 

[Skwim]

Let's do a thought experiment.....
We see particular postulates & structures in mathematics.
Suppose our universe ceases.
Suppose another universe arises. It could have different
physics, but we'll assume that intelligent life ensues.
Would they develop mathematics?
Would it have the same postulates & structures?
If so, this would point to existence independent of a universe.

Yup, but don't forget the OP question,

"Does the Existence of Mathematics Depend on the Existence of the Universe?"​

The scenario you present assumes the existence of a universe.

.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yup, but don't forget the OP question,

"Does the Existence of Mathematics Depend on the Existence of the Universe?"​

The scenario you present assumes the existence of a universe.

.

Oh, I remember the OP.
But if mathematical postulates & structures arise in any universe,
this points to their existing as I said, ie, independent of a universe.
The universe only provides sentient beings who will discover math.
A thing discovered doesn't depend upon the discoverer for existence.

 

[Ponder This]

Does the existence of mathematics depend on the existence of the universe, or does mathematics represent something that could at least conceivably exist independent of any physical reality?

Why or why not?




BONUS QUESTION: Correctly guess Rival's favorite sex toy and her preferred color for it.

(Hint: It can be argued the human brain is the sexiest sex toy of all, and a healthy one is typically pink-grey.)

Mathematics doesn't have physical existence. So it doesn't exist in any physical universe. So it doesn't exist in our universe.

 

[Skwim]

Oh, I remember the OP.
But if mathematical postulates & structures arise in any universe,
this points to their existing as I said, ie, independent of a universe.
The universe only provides sentient beings who will discover math.
A thing discovered doesn't depend upon the discoverer for existence.

Oh, I agree, but the OP wasn't addressing the nuts and bolts of mathematical expressions, but "mathematics" itself, which by definition is a science,

math·e·mat·ics
/maTH(ə)ˈmadiks/
noun
noun: mathematics; noun: applied mathematics; noun: pure mathematics
the abstract science of number, quantity, and space. Mathematics may be studied in its own right ( pure mathematics ), or as it is applied to other disciplines such as physics and engineering ( applied mathematics ).​

which takes a sentient mind to carry out, and in turn requires a universe in which to operate. So, while the relationships among numbers exists independent of any universe, the science that investigates and uses these relationships is not. It requires a universe of some sort.

.

 

[Revoltingest]

...the OP wasn't addressing the nuts and bolts of mathematical expressions, but "mathematics" itself....

As was I.
Not the language of it, but the fundamental structures.

....which takes a sentient mind to carry out, and in turn requires a universe in which to operate. So, while the relationships among numbers exists independent of any universe, the science that investigates and uses these relationships is not. It requires a universe of some sort.
.

Your argument reminds me of the question....
If a tree falls in a forest, & no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?

A thing can exist even if no sentient being experiences it.
And even if there's no universe for math to play out, it will
patiently wait for a universe to experience it.

 

[Skwim]

Your argument reminds me of the question....
If a tree falls in a forest, & no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?

All of which depends on how one defines "sound."

If, in this case, "sound" simply means vibrations traveling through the air created by the falling tree, then yes, the falling tree does make a sound.

But if "sound" requires that these vibrations be picked in any way, say by an ear or microphone, and there is no such receiver, then, no, the falling tree doesn't make a sound.

.
.

 

[Revoltingest]

All of which depends on how one defines "sound."

See below....

If, in this case, "sound" simply means vibrations traveling through the air created by the falling tree, then yes, the falling tree does make a sound.

Well, there you go.

But if "sound" requires that these vibrations be picked in any way, say by an ear or microphone, and there is no such receiver, then, no, the falling tree doesn't make a sound..
.

Sound doesn't require detection in order to exist.

Would you say that it's silent everywhere that there's no sound detector?
If so, it must be dark everywhere there's no light detector.

 

[We Never Know]

Are games and language?

I don't think that humans *specifically* are required. But some sort of intelligent being is.

Nope. Other species have their own language and play games.

 

[Enoch07]

Does the existence of mathematics depend on the existence of the universe, or does mathematics represent something that could at least conceivably exist independent of any physical reality?

You can use mathematics to explain the existence of what we call reality from today all the way back to the few milliseconds before the big bang occured. Then all the sudden the math doesn't make sense anymore.

So yes the existence of math is dependent on the universe because math cannot fully explain everything.

BONUS QUESTION: Correctly guess Rival's favorite sex toy and her preferred color for it.

I'm gonna say myself, in a police officers outfit, she just doesn't know it yet.