Does the human mind reflect spirituality or atheism?

[knockknock]

Ok guys, I’ve been contemplating this whole thing about evolution verses creation and the truth is, I just don’t know. I do understand natural selection and obviously this is truth but the idea that we could have evolved from nothing, with no meaning or purpose just doesn't ring true for me. When I try to think like this – well, I just can’t. It isn’t simply that I don’t want to; it’s truly that I can’t.


I can’t look at a plant or tree and imagine it means nothing to me, because it does. It reflects beauty and emotions that always make me think of God. Likewise for all of nature, even the bad parts. My question is; do you think the human mind reflects spirituality or a godless evolution?

Think about art, in its many variations and how it makes us feel. What about love and all it encompasses. We are eccentric, intelligent, emotional and on the whole, pretty spiritual beings and I just don’t see how such a strong personality can arise out of nothing. What do you think?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Although ants are very simple creatures, and have nothing approaching intellgence as we define it, the collective behaviors of the multitude of individual insects in ant hive result in a number of intricate and complex activities, which seemingly could only be the result of a purposeful intelligence. Emergent phenomena are interesting like that.

 

[Ghostaka]

Man I can tell you, that the mind/soul can't be fully at peace without some form of submission to God. That is how we are designed. We can think that we are at "peace" in atheism but as you've seen yourself... after some deep contemplation... and looking at the world/nature you feel different.

People just let me say this without the verbal beatings:

It is Satan's personal mission to make you think that by not following what God has revealed etc. is freedom. Transgressing against limits prescribed by God seems like "freedom" but it just isn't.

This world is a test; therefore we are made for something. People can say that the human race just came to be but everything about how the Earth supports us shows otherwise. We need God but He doesn't need us... so believing in Him etc. is like doing yourself a favor to seek some type of reward for your worship of Him.

BTW KnockKnock, it is God that allows you to ponder on those thoughts you are having... otherwise you'd be rock solid atheist and would have never started this thread.

Now watch the atheists attempt to extinguish your thoughts and my comment....

Peace be upon you.

 

[Engyo]

Man I can tell you, that the mind/soul can't be fully at peace without some form of submission to God. That is how we are designed. We can think that we are at "peace" in atheism but as you've seen yourself... after some deep contemplation... and looking at the world/nature you feel different.

Peace be upon you too, Ghostaka -

But I must respectfully disagree with you about requiring submission to a supernatural being in order to be fully at peace. I do not find this to be true. Some of the most peaceful people I have ever met were not theists. Some of the angriest and least peaceful people I have ever met were staunch theists. These are my experiences. I do not deny your experience, but I cannot agree.

 

[CarlinKnew]

You say, and I believe you, that you think it's impossible that the universe could have come from nothing. We are indeed a part of a complex universe. But think of how much more complex a god would need to be to create this universe. Why is it more likely to you that an infinitely more complex god came from nothing rather than that the universe came from nothing and gradually became what it is today over billions of years?

 

[Engyo]

My question is; do you think the human mind reflects spirituality or a godless evolution?

Think about art, in its many variations and how it makes us feel. What about love and all it encompasses. We are eccentric, intelligent, emotional and on the whole, pretty spiritual beings and I just don’t see how such a strong personality can arise out of nothing. What do you think?

Hi, KK -

I don't think that a godless evolution means a lack of spirituality, it just means the lack of a creator god. There is plenty of spirituality and appreciation of beauty in the human mind; I just don't think it was put there by a supreme being.

 

[Ghostaka]

Some of the most peaceful people I have ever met were not theists. Some of the angriest and least peaceful people I have ever met were staunch theists. These are my experiences. I do not deny your experience, but I cannot agree.

No doubt, I have seen this as well. But I think that particular aspect of peace or anger emanates from one's personality, aided by accuracy of their belief (or lack thereof). I fully respect your thoughts as well .

Peace be upon you.

 

[knockknock]

You say, and I believe you, that you think it's impossible that the universe could have come from nothing. We are indeed a part of a complex universe. But think of how much more complex a god would need to be to create this universe. Why is it more likely to you that an infinitely more complex god came from nothing rather than that the universe came from nothing and gradually became what it is today over billions of years?

I don't discount the fact that god may have created us via evolution, I do believe he created the whole universe and all its complexities, I suppose I was wondering how such a mind as a human's could evolve without any spiritual input and I suppose that is a question for the atheists amongst us.

 

[knockknock]

Hi, KK -

I don't think that a godless evolution means a lack of spirituality, it just means the lack of a creator god. There is plenty of spirituality and appreciation of beauty in the human mind; I just don't think it was put there by a supreme being.

When I say God, for me it encompasses the spiritual side of my nature. I have no idea who are what that God is and I don't belong to any religion but my own, viewed from my own perspective. A creator God could be far more complex and dynamic than the one people see via the old testament because it is taken too literal.

I can't say much more at this point as my mind is tired (UK based) but thanks for the responses so far.

 

[knockknock]

Although ants are very simple creatures, and have nothing approaching intellgence as we define it, the collective behaviors of the multitude of individual insects in ant hive result in a number of intricate and complex activities, which seemingly could only be the result of a purposeful intelligence. Emergent phenomena are interesting like that.

Ants are amazing, bee's too. Totally facinating populations.

 

[Willamena]

I don't discount the fact that god may have created us via evolution, I do believe he created the whole universe and all its complexities, I suppose I was wondering how such a mind as a human's could evolve without any spiritual input and I suppose that is a question for the atheists amongst us.

What is "spiritual input", please?

 

[LuisDantas]

I don't discount the fact that god may have created us via evolution, I do believe he created the whole universe and all its complexities, I suppose I was wondering how such a mind as a human's could evolve without any spiritual input and I suppose that is a question for the atheists amongst us.

That is in some ways the beauty of it: finding out how things happen without necessarily appealing to divine will.

For things indeed happen in many wondrous and surprising ways in nature. In a sense it would be spoiling if they happened simply because some god wanted them so.

 

[knockknock]

Man I can tell you, that the mind/soul can't be fully at peace without some form of submission to God. That is how we are designed. We can think that we are at "peace" in atheism but as you've seen yourself... after some deep contemplation... and looking at the world/nature you feel different.

People just let me say this without the verbal beatings:

It is Satan's personal mission to make you think that by not following what God has revealed etc. is freedom. Transgressing against limits prescribed by God seems like "freedom" but it just isn't.

This world is a test; therefore we are made for something. People can say that the human race just came to be but everything about how the Earth supports us shows otherwise. We need God but He doesn't need us... so believing in Him etc. is like doing yourself a favor to seek some type of reward for your worship of Him.

BTW KnockKnock, it is God that allows you to ponder on those thoughts you are having... otherwise you'd be rock solid atheist and would have never started this thread.

Now watch the atheists attempt to extinguish your thoughts and my comment....

Peace be upon you.

Thanks Ghostaka, peace be upon you. Very nice post.

 

[Alceste]

I don't discount the fact that god may have created us via evolution, I do believe he created the whole universe and all its complexities, I suppose I was wondering how such a mind as a human's could evolve without any spiritual input and I suppose that is a question for the atheists amongst us.

The question is whether the "input" of a supernatural being is required in order for sentience to arise. I consider sentience / awareness to be an emergent property which only requires a particular arrangement of self-organizing molecules (a brain) and a steady infusion of energy (food). If sentience could be an emergent property of self-organizing matter, then a supernatural being's input is not required. From what I gather, emergent properties are aspects of all complex systems, and the best empirical evidence available to us suggests there is no need for the interference of a supernatural being for us to be able to replicate natural conditions and observe self-organizing complex systems with emergent properties in a laboratory. So, since I like to stick to the most elegant and streamlined explanation for natural phenomena, and God is an un-necessary add-on, God gets the axe I'm afraid.

I should point out that the lack of a belief in God has zero impact on a person's spirituality, or their appreciation of art and beauty. And trees. And such like.

 

[idea]

My question is; do you think the human mind reflects spirituality or a godless evolution?

My vote is for spirituality...

"I remember when I was a college student there were great discussions on the question of organic evolution. I took classes in geology and biology and heard the whole story of Darwinism as it was then taught. I wondered about it. I thought much about it. But I did not let it throw me, for I read what the scriptures said about our origins and our relationship to God. Since then I have become acquainted with what to me is a far more important and wonderful kind of evolution. It is the evolution of men and women as the sons and daughters of God, and of our marvelous potential for growth as children of our Creator.”
—President Gordon B. Hinckley, “God Hath Not Given Us the Spirit of Fear,” Ensign, Oct. 1984, 5.

 

[knockknock]

What is "spiritual input", please?

Ok, I'll try tonight to explain what I mean. Spiritual to me is the belief that there is more to life than just to survive, that there is an extra dimension to our beings, our spirituality. I don't believe evolution is capable of giving us this invisible quality. It is the opposite of what evolution is about, rather than mindlessly fighting to be the strongest to survive which is how evolution works, the winner takes it all, spirituality asks us to help our fellow man to survive and not be so self centered. It is the nicer side of humanity and contradicts the law of the jungle, therefore has been put there by something other than random, mindless chemical reactions.

 

[GiantHouseKey]

Greetings

Ok guys, I’ve been contemplating this whole thing about evolution verses creation and the truth is, I just don’t know. I do understand natural selection and obviously this is truth

Obviously? Apparently not obvious enough for some.

the idea that we could have evolved from nothing, with no meaning or purpose just doesn't ring true for me. When I try to think like this – well, I just can’t. It isn’t simply that I don’t want to; it’s truly that I can’t.

I understand your dillema, but nihilism can be a bit more...well...nihilistic than some may be able to fully appreciate. The idea that we have evolved from nothing (My apologies if I have miscontrued your use of the word 'nothing') is something that I too find very difficult to understand. No purpose; No meaning... It all seems very unintelligently designed... Which, for somebody who has faith in a creationist idea, is not going to make sense.

I can’t look at a plant or tree and imagine it means nothing to me, because it does.

Absolutely! But you have a brain I would imagine. And your brain is a powerful tool. Because you have associated a various set of meanings to the objective perceptions of 'plant' or 'tree', it doesn't mean that they have any intrinsic or objective meaning - It just means that you have made meanings for them. If I found somebody that said they had no subjective associations at all, they would either become my master or they would be lieing, and I would place money on the latter.

My question is; do you think the human mind reflects spirituality or a godless evolution?

I notice how you have suggested that theism and spirituality are synonymous...

Aside from that, when I think about the answer to a question like this I always try to put into perspective the sheer temporal period that the human mind has had to develop. I would imagine that the chances of the first brain being the same as our current brain are small (Or the <insert the chance of instantaneous creationism being true here>, you pick). Through millions of years changes have occured in the brain that change how it responds to the stimuli that affect it.

Sorry i'm waffling. In answer to the direct question I feel that the answer is that it doesn't 'reflect' godless evolution but it doesn't 'reflect' the existance of a God either. Just a tool... A really powerful one, but just a tool...

Think about art, in its many variations and how it makes us feel. What about love and all it encompasses. We are eccentric, intelligent, emotional and on the whole, pretty spiritual beings and I just don’t see how such a strong personality can arise out of nothing. What do you think?

Not out of nothing, but not out of God either. That would be what we like to call a false dichotomy

GhK.

 

[CarlinKnew]

Ok, I'll try tonight to explain what I mean. Spiritual to me is the belief that there is more to life than just to survive, that there is an extra dimension to our beings, our spirituality. I don't believe evolution is capable of giving us this invisible quality. It is the opposite of what evolution is about, rather than mindlessly fighting to be the strongest to survive which is how evolution works, the winner takes it all, spirituality asks us to help our fellow man to survive and not be so self centered. It is the nicer side of humanity and contradicts the law of the jungle, therefore has been put there by something other than random, mindless chemical reactions.

It doesn't take spirituality to get us to help our fellow men survive. It takes morality, an evolved trait. Other packs of animals share our tribe mentality.

 

[Alceste]

Ok, I'll try tonight to explain what I mean. Spiritual to me is the belief that there is more to life than just to survive, that there is an extra dimension to our beings, our spirituality. I don't believe evolution is capable of giving us this invisible quality. It is the opposite of what evolution is about, rather than mindlessly fighting to be the strongest to survive which is how evolution works, the winner takes it all, spirituality asks us to help our fellow man to survive and not be so self centered. It is the nicer side of humanity and contradicts the law of the jungle, therefore has been put there by something other than random, mindless chemical reactions.

It's useful to note that evolution does not pretend or aspire to provide any answers to questions of the meaning and purpose of life. It only describes the mechanisms by which life in all its diversity came to exist. It only deals with how, not why. And it only deals in objective, not subjective truth. So, there's no "mindlessly fighting to be the strongest to survive" implied by evolution - in fact there are no inherent value judgments in the theory. Those value judgments are yours, because you have incorrectly assumed that scientific truths should resolve spiritual questions.

So, when it comes to how you came to exist, evolutionary biology intends to provide you with your answer. Although it's an ongoing project and some questions remain, the scientific method is insurmountably good at explaining "how". When it comes to why you exist, and where all your "invisible qualities" came from you're on your own. Science only deals with visible qualities.

 

[knockknock]

So, when it comes to how you came to exist, evolutionary biology intends to provide you with your answer. Although it's an ongoing project and some questions remain, the scientific method is insurmountably good at explaining "how". When it comes to why you exist, and where all your "invisible qualities" came from you're on your own. Science only deals with visible qualities.

I'm not asking science to answer these question, I fully recognise that it can't. I'm contemplating the idea that some people have about evolution; which is that it 'proves' that there is no god, which of course it can't do. Some people believe it does and so it is to them I ask how this accounts for our spiritual nature.