Does the quran instruct ANY sort of physical punishment towards disobedient woman – soft or hard ?

[take it or leave it]

And if so , does the quran also instruct woman can also physical punish there husbands if they don’t obey ?

If so should such a book that commands physical punishment towards woman be allowed in society today ?

Yes the Old testiment has a lot of violence in it , but it is followed by a NT that is more to do with love for others, the quran does not have a new testament therefore the whole of it must be obeyed thought time.

Quran 4:34 does clearly instruct the beating of disobedient woman , in fact half of the translation say scourge – which means to flog whip or severely beat. The new translation says lightly beat – hahahahh ohhh my , whats a light beating and a hard beating – who decides – her husband ?

1. "Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God has gifted the one above the other, and on account of the outlay they make from their substance for them. Virtuous women are obedient, careful, during the husband's absence, because God has of them been careful. But chide those for whose refractoriness you have cause to fear; remove them into beds apart, and scourge them: but if they are obedient to you, then seek not occasion against them: verily, God is High, Great!" (Rodwell's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)
2. "Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Surely God is high, supreme." (Dawood's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)
3. "Men are in charge of women, because Allah has made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah has guarded. As for those from whom you fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted, Great." (Pickthall's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)
4. "Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for God's guarding. And those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them. If they then obey you, look not for any way against them; God is All high, All great." (Arberry's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)
5. "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in their sleeping places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great. (Shakir's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)
6. "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whom part you fear disloyalty and ill conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance) for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all). (Ali's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)

Some say it means beat with a toothpick , not to show any marks and as a symbolic action to say enough is enough , but the fact is the quran condones/instructs a sort of physical beating – how can that be right in society today –

Google the german imam who beat his wifre reciting that quran 4:34 , the same imam who advise the goverment on non violence or the UAE court that has ruled a man may beat his wife - please see links below

sodahead.com/united-states/muslim-imam-who-lectures-on-non-violence-in-germany-is-arrested-for-beating-up-his-wife/question-1367469/

articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2010-10-19/middle-east/28215789_1_uae-court-chief-justice-falah-al-hajeri-gulf-countries

maybe I have got it all wrong – but if you look at other versus regarding woman in the quran it does seem to fall in line with quran 4:34 - please can someone explain this verse to me – I am open minded and willing to see another point of view.

Many thanks - peace to all

 

[take it or leave it]

man its gone quiet in here , well if you dont want to answer the hard questions i will presume i am right , islam does condone the beating owf woman - thanks your silences says it all

 

[angellous_evangellous]

man its gone quiet in here , well if you dont want to answer the hard questions i will presume i am right , islam does condone the beating owf woman - thanks your silences says it all

If no one responds, I'll presume that you're question was so wrong that it wasn't worth addressing.

 

[fallingblood]

take it or leave it: There was no serious question here. You have already made up your mind as to what you want the Quran to say. Thus, it really would be a waste of other people's time to try to convince you that your preconceived bias is wrong.

You believe that the Quran is harmful to society, or at least should not be allowed. You made that pretty clear in your OP. You also made it clear that you believe that the Quran condones beating one's wife.

To then claim that you are open-minded will not convince anyone, since you had previously shown that you have strong biases, which condemn Islam, and raises Christianity onto a podium. That is probably why no one has been sucked into this debate that most likely will go no where.

As for the Bible. Jews only take the OT. More so, Jesus stated that all of the law should be followed, thus keeping in touch with his Jewish background

 

[YmirGF]

The truth of the matter is that you will find interpretations ranging all over the board on the question of "beating" in the Qur'an. I have watched many videos of Muslim "scholars" explaining what the passages mean and many claim it does literally mean to "beat" ones disobedient wife. That said, I have seen many that also claim that it doesn't mean to "beat" at all and that that word itself is open to interpretation.

The sad reality is that women are persecuted by their men in virtually all societies. This fact is inescapable. One has to bear in mind that hitting ones wife is something that has been frowned on in "modern" culture only fairly recently. In my opinion, it is a bit of moral smugness on our part. What do they say about reformed sinners again?

 

[beenie]

The truth of the matter is that you will find interpretations ranging all over the board on the question of "beating" in the Qur'an. I have watched many videos of Muslim "scholars" explaining what the passages mean and many claim it does literally mean to "beat" ones disobedient wife. That said, I have seen many that also claim that it doesn't mean to "beat" at all and that that word itself is open to interpretation.

The sad reality is that women are persecuted by their men in virtually all societies. This fact is inescapable. One has to bear in mind that hitting ones wife is something that has been frowned on in "modern" culture only fairly recently. In my opinion, it is a bit of moral smugness on our part. What do they say about reformed sinners again?

Completely agree.

I wish all "scholars" would reach an agreement and decide that either:

1) the passage doesn't mean "beat" at all and it means what others have suggested (to remove oneself or separate);

or

2) the passage DOES mean "beat" but perhaps that was the unfortunate norm back in those days (kind of like different methods of dealing with financial trades, etc.) and no longer applies today.

Problem is, Islam is believed to be a religion for all times, but IMO that doesn't mean that verses can't be clarified to fit into today's societal norms. I can't think of a place on earth where beating a "disobedient" wife is acceptable as a culture (not saying it doesn't happen, but that it's encouraged or accepted). How does one define "disobedient" anyway?

Women's rights are, unfortunately, still a huge problem in all cultures, all religions.

 

[Vendetta]

Ssainhu you're in the wrong area (points to kitchen) what? You said no? *slap *slap *slap

 

[idav]

Women's rights are, unfortunately, still a huge problem in all cultures, all religions.

Oddly enough it seems more of a problem in the more religious countries. As America is getting more secular people are being seen more as equal. Not a coincidence.

 

[Badran]

If no one responds, I'll presume that you're question was so wrong that it wasn't worth addressing.

There was no serious question here. You have already made up your mind as to what you want the Quran to say. Thus, it really would be a waste of other people's time to try to convince you that your preconceived bias is wrong.

Especially also since he has made another thread about it just a few days ago, where he did pretty much the same of what he did here in this OP, and later on just restated what he said in the OP, rather than address the posts answering his "question":

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/116641-islam-woman-can-muslim-woman-beat.html

 

[Riverwolf]

man its gone quiet in here , well if you dont want to answer the hard questions i will presume i am right , islam does condone the beating owf woman - thanks your silences says it all

You have to understand that this forum has seen literally hundreds of threads over the years all about calling Islam evil because of X, Y, or Z verse in the Qur'an or Hadith, and Muslims here are kind of sick of having to answer every single one of them. Heck, I'm not even Muslim, and I'M sick of these threads.

Wouldn't you be, too?

 

[Starsoul]

Completely agree.

I wish all "scholars" would reach an agreement and decide that either:

1) the passage doesn't mean "beat" at all and it means what others have suggested (to remove oneself or separate);

or

2) the passage DOES mean "beat" but perhaps that was the unfortunate norm back in those days (kind of like different methods of dealing with financial trades, etc.) and no longer applies today.

Problem is, Islam is believed to be a religion for all times, but IMO that doesn't mean that verses can't be clarified to fit into today's societal norms. I can't think of a place on earth where beating a "disobedient" wife is acceptable as a culture (not saying it doesn't happen, but that it's encouraged or accepted). How does one define "disobedient" anyway?

Women's rights are, unfortunately, still a huge problem in all cultures, all religions.

Looks like the literal Quran followers aren't decided, and its pretty odd to know, since the examples and the practice of the Prophet saww is pretty clear, there is no beating, but I guess that requires belief in hadith.

 

[Badran]

If so should such a book that commands physical punishment towards woman be allowed in society today ?

Yes the Old testiment has a lot of violence in it , but it is followed by a NT that is more to do with love for others, the quran does not have a new testament therefore the whole of it must be obeyed thought time.

The ignorance of this statement is just too much to deal with. Are you, or are you not aware, that Jewish people only accept the "Old Testament"? You might want to consider disallowing it too, since some people still follow it. That of course assuming that your view of these texts has any value in regards to what they contain.

Quran 4:34 does clearly instruct the beating of disobedient woman , in fact half of the translation say scourge – which means to flog whip or severely beat. The new translation says lightly beat – hahahahh ohhh my , whats a light beating and a hard beating – who decides – her husband ?

Let me try to make this simple for you, there is no possibility for the word to be translated either to 'severely beat' or 'slightly beat', that would be adding the interpretation. For the word to be translated for what you're going for, it would be just 'beat them'. However, the FACT is, the word has many meanings.

[/LIST]Some say it means beat with a toothpick , not to show any marks and as a symbolic action to say enough is enough

Again, just for the sake of clarifying for others, that is based on related Hadiths, as its not possible to take the verse to mean that solely from the Quran.

And based on Hadiths and the prophet's actions in general, what we would get isn't that we should beat women.

Google the german imam who beat his wifre reciting that quran 4:34 , the same imam who advise the goverment on non violence or the UAE court that has ruled a man may beat his wife - please see links below

sodahead.com/united-states/muslim-imam-who-lectures-on-non-violence-in-germany-is-arrested-for-beating-up-his-wife/question-1367469/

articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2010-10-19/middle-east/28215789_1_uae-court-chief-justice-falah-al-hajeri-gulf-countries

And?

maybe I have got it all wrong – but if you look at other versus regarding woman in the quran it does seem to fall in line with quran 4:34 - please can someone explain this verse to me – I am open minded and willing to see another point of view.

 

[beenie]

Looks like the literal Quran followers aren't decided, and its pretty odd to know, since the examples and the practice of the Prophet saww is pretty clear, there is no beating, but I guess that requires belief in hadith.

That is an entirely different debate, as the same scholars who can't agree are NOT only Qur'anists, but mainstream Sunnis as well.

 

[Sahar]

Looks like the literal Quran followers aren't decided, and its pretty odd to know, since the examples and the practice of the Prophet saww is pretty clear, there is no beating, but I guess that requires belief in hadith.

How do you understand the Ayah, dear Starsoul?

 

[Starsoul]

If the Op really wanted to know, this isn't really the way to ask, he's pretty much convinced of his own lack of understanding on it, and this seems to me yet another attempt to roll this debate into something else, which I wont participate in. I do not trash other's belief's in debates, I ask them what I need to know, and thats it. It is well known on Rf that one will post some evidence /answer to the questions and there on begins the most un-educated , ill-mannered battle of words, going haywire, nothing coming out of it. I'm a professional, most people here are,and I'm afraid I do not have too much time on my hands to deal with nonsensical morons (not saying that he is one , yet : ) ). If he wishes his question be answered, he can post one in a DIR.

Non-believers (or some different believers, not all though)are usually not the kind of people(esp on Rf debates) who show respect, reverence for other religions and beliefs, and then they have this knack for some shabby, pouncy 'debate' which is just a gimmick to throw trash on others really, nothing else. I'm sorry if It comes across as harsh but thats the reason i don't want to participate in debates, it mostly gives way to harshness esp when muslims are at the receiving end.

I would really hope that this one turns out different, but, lets see.

 

[Marble]

And if so , does the quran also instruct woman can also physical punish there husbands if they don’t obey ?

Men are physical stronger than women, it would be pointless to allow women to beat their husbands.

If so should such a book that commands physical punishment towards woman be allowed in society today ?

Quran exists.
There is no way of removing this book from history.

Domestic violence is an issue all over the world, a man does not need to know the Quran to beat his wife or/and child(ren).

 

[fallingblood]

Oddly enough it seems more of a problem in the more religious countries. As America is getting more secular people are being seen more as equal. Not a coincidence.

Actually, it is a coincidence. And it is more than just a religious thing. Look at Russia. They had state-sponosored atheism. Women were still considered lower than men. It has more to do with culture than anything else.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes the Old testiment has a lot of violence in it , but it is followed by a NT that is more to do with love for others, the quran does not have a new testament therefore the whole of it must be obeyed thought time.

Please show me the New Testament passage that tells us that this law from the Old Testament no longer applies:

Exodus 21:20:

20 “If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies [q]at his hand, he shall [r]be punished. 21 If, however, he [s]survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; (M)for he is his [t]property.

 

[idav]

Actually, it is a coincidence. And it is more than just a religious thing. Look at Russia. They had state-sponosored atheism. Women were still considered lower than men. It has more to do with culture than anything else.

Russia is hugely orthodox even if religion was suppressed. China may be a better example where their culture pretty much demands they be ********, IDK they are wack. China and their communism is the exception not the rule.

 

[Father Heathen]

2) the passage DOES mean "beat" but perhaps that was the unfortunate norm back in those days (kind of like different methods of dealing with financial trades, etc.) and no longer applies today

Why would god advocate "unfortunate norms"? If he wouldn't why would they be included in his holy texts? Shouldn't the righteousness of god supersede human cultural norms?