Does the quran instruct ANY sort of physical punishment towards disobedient woman – soft or hard ?

[idav]

Saudi Arabia doesn't allow women to drive either; can you back that up with Qur'an? The so-called "Islamic State" of UAE is obviously mistaken with their ruling.



darb also means "to leave" or "separate". I choose that over beat. There, done.

Yeah Saudi is one of the strictest of states which I will agree goes beyond the quran but thats just from what I've seen muslim apologists say.

I must have missed it but what verse are you referring to? Id like to see the context of why 'beat' or 'seperate' can possibly be interchanged.

 

[Badran]

what ther verb darb in arabic , pls tell waht are these meanings

Look it up, i've already provided you with links explaining the matter and giving examples.

well an islamic state has ruled that the quran does instruct woman to be beaten , so who are you to say it does not , do you know the quran better than the imams and shieks in UAE ?

ssainhu already answered that, and to add to it, i'm not saying that this interpretation and translation is for a fact wrong, i am saying i don't accept it. What i am stating as a fact however, is that this interpretation and translation is not the only possible one, or the most reasonable for that matter.

and yes the nt is important - but we are command not to follow it and to live by the nt m, since quran does not have a new and old , this still stands today

Who are "we"? Did you even read what i said?

I said Jewish people don't see it that way, and they don't follow the NT, so the whole new and old testament is only accepted by Christians, not Jews. Jews follow the 'Old Testament'. Which means you should apply your same standard regarding books that supposedly contain bad stuff, and advocate not allowing the OT, since its still followed by some people. That of course is following your terrible reasoning.

ok i will provide the proof - if you provide proof iot does not mean beat it means totaly something else

I'll suppose you mean that you want me to prove that the word can mean other things, in which case, not only will i do that, but i'll also provide that from an example in the Quran itself.

You can just read this post, which i linked to you many times by now, providing an example of a total different usage for the word, in the Quran itself. And you can of course for further embarrassment put the word in a dictionary to see the number of possible meanings for it.

 

[Starsoul]

The story of the Khalifa Umar (RA)


"It is reported that a man came to 'Umar ibn Al-Khattab ra to complain about his wife's ill-temper. While he was waiting for 'Umar to come out of his house, he heard 'Umar's wife scolding him and 'Umar quietly listening to her, and not answering her back. The man turned around and started walking away, muttering to himself: "If that is the case with 'Umar, the leader of the believers, who is famous for his uprighteness and toughness, then what about poor me?!"

At that moment, 'Umar came out of his house and saw the man walking away. He called him and said, "What is it you want of me, O man?" The man replied: "O leader of the believers, I came to complain to you about my wife's bad-temper and how she nags me. Then I heard your wife doing the same to you, so I turned around, muttering to myself, 'If that is the situation of the leader of the believers, then what about me?'"

'Umar replied, "O my brother, I bear with her because of her rights over me. She cooks my food, bakes my bread, washes my clothes, breast-feeds my child...and yet none of these are her duty;* and then she is a comfort to my heart and keeps me away from forbidden deeds. Consequently, I bear with her." The man said, "It is the same with me, O leader of the believers." 'Umar said: "Then, O my brother, be patient with her, indeed this life is short. (Adh-Dhahabi, Al-Kabâ'ir 194)

The last hadith about 'Umar is a beautiful example of the lofty status that Islam has given women. The Khalifa himself used to listen patiently while his wife scolded him and he instructed his followers to likewise be patient and grateful for all the favours their wives gave them. Dr. M. Moinuddin Siddiqui, who has translated Al-Kabâ'ir into english, includes the following footnote in the place I have marked above with an asterisk [*]:
According to the Shari'ah, a Muslim wife has no obligation to do all this; rather, it is the husband's obligation to take care of it [either himself or] by hiring a servant (or even, in the case of breast-feeding, a wet-nurse). Therefore, if a woman does this, it is out of good-will and compliance on her part, not because it is obligatory on her, and consequently it is a cause for appreciation and helpfulness on the part of her husband. (Translator)


Will post more on this.

 

[take it or leave it]

Yeah Saudi is one of the strictest of states which I will agree goes beyond the quran but thats just from what I've seen muslim apologists say.

I must have missed it but what verse are you referring to? Id like to see the context of why 'beat' or 'seperate' can possibly be interchanged.

Yes i would lover a response to this , as how can the word mean to remove whrn one translation says lightly beat - so lightly seperate and another says scourge-

def:scourge (skûrj)
n. 1. A source of widespread dreadful affliction and devastation such as that caused by pestilence or war.
2. A means of inflicting severe suffering, vengeance, or punishment.
3. A whip used to inflict punishment.

tr.v. scourged, scourg·ing, scourg·es 1. To afflict with severe or widespread suffering and devastation; ravage.
2. To chastise severely; excoriate.
3. To flog.



so waht is to serousily seperate - it just does not make sense at all, you already seperated her in the 2nd punsihment , why would you do it agian ?

1. Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God has gifted the one above the other, and on account of the outlay they make from their substance for them. Virtuous women are obedient, careful, during the husband's absence, because God has of them been careful. But chide those for whose refractoriness you have cause to fear; remove them into beds apart, and scourge them: but if they are obedient to you, then seek not occasion against them: verily, God is High, Great!" (Rodwell's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)
2. "Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Surely God is high, supreme." (Dawood's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)
3. "Men are in charge of women, because Allah has made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah has guarded. As for those from whom you fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted, Great." (Pickthall's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)
4. "Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for God's guarding. And those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them. If they then obey you, look not for any way against them; God is All high, All great." (Arberry's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)
5. "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in their sleeping places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great. (Shakir's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)
6. "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whom part you fear disloyalty and ill conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance) for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all). (Ali's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)

 

[take it or leave it]

Look it up, i've already provided you with links explaining the matter and giving examples.



ssainhu already answered that, and to add to it, i'm not saying that this interpretation and translation is for a fact wrong, i am saying i don't accept it. What i am stating as a fact however, is that this interpretation and translation is not the only possible one, or the most reasonable for that matter.



Who are "we"? Did you even read what i said?

I said Jewish people don't see it that way, and they don't follow the NT, so the whole new and old testament is only accepted by Christians, not Jews. Jews follow the 'Old Testament'. Which means you should apply your same standard regarding books that supposedly contain bad stuff, and advocate not allowing the OT, since its still followed by some people. That of course is following your terrible reasoning.



I'll suppose you mean that you want me to prove that the word can mean other things, in which case, not only will i do that, but i'll also provide that from an example in the Quran itself.

You can just read this post, which i linked to you many times by now, providing an example of a total different usage for the word, in the Quran itself. And you can of course for further embarrassment put the word in a dictionary to see the number of possible meanings for it.

many thanks for the reply - i will read that link and reply but can you answer my question below

Yes i would lover a response to this , as how can the word mean to remove whrn one translation says lightly beat - so lightly seperate and another says scourge-
so waht is to serousily seperate - it just does not make sense at all, you already seperated her in the 2nd punsihment , why would you do it agian ?

def:scourge (skûrj)
n. 1. A source of widespread dreadful affliction and devastation such as that caused by pestilence or war.
2. A means of inflicting severe suffering, vengeance, or punishment.
3. A whip used to inflict punishment.

tr.v. scourged, scourg·ing, scourg·es 1. To afflict with severe or widespread suffering and devastation; ravage.
2. To chastise severely; excoriate.
3. To flog.

 

[Badran]

many thanks for the reply - i will read that link and reply but can you answer my question below

Yes i would lover a response to this , as how can the word mean to remove whrn one translation says lightly beat

That is one of the possible meanings, which the translator picked and think is the appropriate one in this case.

so waht is to serousily seperate - it just does not make sense at all, you already seperated her in the 2nd punsihment , why would you do it agian ?

In the second step you either don't have sex with her, or not sleep with her in the same bed, or both etc.. something along those lines.

Thats not the same as the possible meaning of separate or cut off. Finally, those are not the only possible meanings. That is, there are also other possible meanings than 'beat them' and 'cut them off'.

 

[take it or leave it]

That is one of the possible meanings, which the translator picked and think is the appropriate one in this case.



In the second step you either don't have sex with her, or not sleep with her in the same bed, or both etc.. something along those lines.

Thats not the same as the possible meaning of separate or cut off. Finally, those are not the only possible meanings. That is, there are also other possible meanings than 'beat them' and 'cut them off'.

I can't find a source that explains all of the usages of the word in the Quran, i will however give you an example where the word "ضرب" is used in a clearly different context, that i'll think will illustrate the point.

وَضَرَبَ اللَّهُ مَثَلًا لِّلَّذِينَ آمَنُوا اِمْرَأَةَ فِرْعَوْنَ إِذْ قَالَتْ رَبِّ ابْنِ لِي عِندَكَ بَيْتًا فِي الْجَنَّةِ وَنَجِّنِي مِن فِرْعَوْنَ وَعَمَلِهِ وَنَجِّنِي مِنَ الْقَوْمِ الظَّالِمِينَ

066.011 And God sets forth, as an example to those who believe the wife of Pharaoh: Behold she said: "O my Lord! Build for me, in nearness to Thee, a mansion in the Garden, and save me from Pharaoh and his doings, and save me from those that do wrong";

Firstly you have only given me one instance , you said you had so many , please give me 5 more instances so I can study them

Please explain to me – lets test your theory ضرب" – means and god set forth , so lets say it means set forth , now lets put that word in quran 4:34

1. So "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whom part you fear disloyalty and ill conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) set the apart (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance) for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all). (Ali's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)

Men are in charge of women, because Allah has made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah has guarded. As for those from whom you fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and set them apart them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted, Great." (Pickthall's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)

It does not make sense – as you already set them apart in the when you banished them – I mean the words says scourge – severly beat

Ok lets put beat into your sentence - 066.011 And God BEATS, as an example to those who believe the wife of Pharaoh: Behold she said: "O my Lord! Build for me, in nearness to Thee, a mansion in the Garden, and save me from Pharaoh and his doings, and save me from those that do wrong";


Uh ???? no sense at all

Mate there are so many versus in the quran about woman unfortanly 99 percent of them are bad not going to go down that road , but here is a few

Womn are made a degree lower than men , men can have 4 wifes , woamn cannot , men can beat woman , but woman cant beat men , woman get half in divorce ,muhammed treated slave woman really badly and cut a baby out of a woman womb – old mo often refferd to woman as lower tham dogs and that they were stupid ,I can go on about how how mohammed hit his young wife ashia in the chest , causing her great pain , how woman are refferd to as mens positions , woman are treated in every muslim country answer me one thing aswell

,why is there not such thing as martial rape in islam ?

 

[Marble]

The status of women is rather low in scriptures of other religions too.
Here an example from the Manusmriti (Hindu law book):

1. Every woman must be loyal, faithful. obedient honorable to her husband even if he is blind, deaf, dumb, old, physically handicapped, debauchel or, gambler and neglects his wife and lives with his concubine(s). If the husband is unhappy, it would be the fault of his wife. If he cries, she should cry. If he laughs she should laugh. She can only answer humbly to his question. She should not on her own put any question. She should eat only after her husband eats. If he is beating she should not react, but fall on his feet and beg him to pardon her, and kiss his hands and pacify him. If the husband dies she should burn herself to death on his funeral pyre and go along with him to the other world and serve him there in this manner. (Padma Purana)

2. Women are fickle minded. Never believe them. Friendship with a women is just like friendship with a wolf. (Rig-Veda 8-33-7)

3. A virtuous woman is one who dies on the funeral pyre of her dead husband and avails the privilege of serving her husband in the other world. (Atharva Veda 18-3-1)

4. Woman is the source of sorrow. At birth she makes her mother weep. At the time of the puberty she makes her parents weep. At the time of the marriage she makes all her family members and relatives weep. In youth she commits lot of blunders and brings bad name to the entire family, relatives and Varna. She tortures the hearts of her parents, husband and other family members. She is called 'DARIKA' because she is source of sorrow to all. (Aithareya Brahmana)

5. Women are liers, corrupt, greedy, and unvirtuous. (Manu II 1)

6. Even for a woman, the performance of the sanskaras are necessary and they should be performed. But they should be performed without uttering the Veda Mantras." (Manu II. 60)

7. It is the nature of women to seduce men in this (world); the wise are never unguarded in the company of males. (Manu II. 213)

8. For women are able to lead astray in (this) world not only a fool, but even a learned man, and (to make) him a slave of desire and anger." (Manu II.214)

9. One should not sit in a lonely place with one's mother, sister or daughter, for the senses are powerful, and master even a learned man." (Manu II. 215)

10. A Brahmin male by virtue of his birth becomes the first husband of all women in the universe. (Manu III. 14)

11. Women not care for beauty, nor is their attention fied on age; (thinking); (it is though that) he is a man, they give themselves to the handsome and to the ugly. (Manu IV. 14)

12. By a girl, by a young woman, or even by an aged one, nothing must be done independently, even in her own house." (Manu IV. 147)

13. In childhood a female must be subject to her father, in youth to her husband, when her lord is dead to her sons; a woman must never be independent. (Manu IV. 148)

14. She must not seek to separate herself from her father, husband or son; by leaving them. She would make them both (her own and her husband's) family incompatible. (Manu IV. 149)

15. A Brahman must never eat food given at a sacrifice performed by a woman. (Manu IV. 205)

16. Sacrifices performed by women are inauspicious and not acceptable to god. They should therefore be avoided. (Manu IV. 206)

17. A girl must be under the care of her father . . . in youth under the care of the husband and in old age under the care of her sons. But she should never be free and independent. (Manu V. 148)

18. She must always be cheerful, clever in management of her household affairs, careful in cleaning her utensils and economical in expenditure. (Manu V. 150)

19. Him to whom her father may give her, or her brother with the father's permission, she shall obey as long as he lives and when he is dead, must not insult his memory. (Manu V. 151)

20. The husband who wedded her with sacred mantras is always a source of happiness to his wife, both in season and out of season, in this world and in the next. (Manu V1. 53)

21. Though destitute or virtuous, or seeking pleasure elsewhere, or devoid of good qualities, yet a husband must be constantly worshipped as a god by a faithful wife. (Manu V. 154)

22. No sacrifice, no vow, no fast must be performed by women, apart from their husbands. If a wife obeys her husband, she will for that reason alone be exalted in heaven. (Manu V. 155)

23. At her pleasure let her (i.e. widow) enunciate her body, by living voluntarily on pure flowers, roots and fruits, but let her not when her lord is deceased, even pronounce the name of another man. (Manu V. 157)

24. But a widow, who from a wish to bear children, slights her deceased husband by marrying again, brings disgrace on herself here below, and shall be excluded from the seat of her lord (in heaven). (Manu V. 161)

25. Responsibly the father who gives not (his daughter) in marriage at the proper time. (Manu IX. 4)

26. A woman must always maintain her virtue and surrender her body to her husband only, ever if she is married off to an ugly person or even a leper. (Manu IX. 14)

27. Through their passion for men, through their mutable temper, through their natural heartlessness, they become disloyal towards their husbands, however, carefully they may be guarded in this (world). (Manu IX. 15)

28. Knowing their disposition, which the Lord of Creatures laid in them at the creation, to be such, (every) man should most strenuously exert himself to guard them. (Manu IX. 16)

29. When creating them, Manu allotted to women (a love of their) bed, (of heart) seat and (of) ornament, impure desires, wrath, dishonesty, malice, and bad conduct. (Manu IX. 17)

30. Killing of a woman, a Shudra or an atheist is not sinful. Woman is an embodiment of the worst desires, hatred, deceit, jealousy and bad character. Women should never be given freedom. (Manu IX. 17 and V. 47, 147)

31. Women have no right to study the Vedas. That is why their Sanskars are performed without Veda Mantras. women have no knowledge of religion because they have no right to know the Vedas. The uttering of Veda Mantras, they are as unclean as untruth is." (Manu IX. 18)

32. All women are born of sinful wombs. (Bhagavad-Gita IX 32)

33. The husband is declared to be one with the wife, which means there could be no separation once a woman is married. (Manu IX. 45)

34. Neither by sale nor by repudiation is a wife released from her husband. (Manu IX. 46)

35. To a distinguished, handsome suitor of equal caste should she have not attained (the proper age) (i.e. although she may not have reached puberty). (Manu IX. 88)

36. A wife, a son and a slave, they three are declared to have no property: the wealth which they earn is (acquired)for him to whom they belong. (Manu IX. 416)

37. None of the acts of women can be taken as good and reasonable. (Manu X.4)

38. Day and night women must be kept in dependence by males (of their families), and, if they attach themselves to sexual enjoyments, they must be kept under one's control. (Manu XI2)

39. Her father protects (her) in childhood, her husband protects (her) in youth, and her sons protect (her) in old age; a woman is never fit for independence." (Manu XI. 3)

40. Women must particularly be guarded against evil inclinations, however trifling (they may appear); for, if they are not guarded, they will bring sorrow on to families." (Manu XI. 5)

41. Considering that the highest duty of all castes even weak husbands (must) scribe to guard their wives. (Manu XI. 6)

42. A woman shall not perform the daily sacrifices prescribed by the Vedas. Then according to IX.37 if she does it, she will go to hell. (Manu XI. 36)1, 2, 3, 4 From- Casteism: The Eighth Worst Wonder by Dr. S. L. Virdi, Pages-39-43)

source of the text

,why is there not such thing as martial rape in islam ?

Because this is a rather new concept.
Even in Europe and the USA the idea that a sexual act commited by a man upon his wife could be rape was not present in the minds of people just some centuries ago.

 

[fallingblood]

,why is there not such thing as martial rape in islam ?

Actually, martial rape, even in the United States, is a difficult subject. In many cases, it is not something seriously looked into, and when they are, they are hard to judge. Simply, it is a very difficult subject.

 

[Badran]

so lets say it means set forth

This is the last reply i'm giving to any of your posts, at least until you learn how to read what i said properly, and learn how to write properly for that matter.

There is no one singular meaning for the word, its not either this or that. There is no one usage for the word either, there are many.

The verse does not have one possible meaning, no matter what you do there is no one meaning, interpretation or translation that you can point toward and say thats the only possible one.

The only thing you can do is try to figure out which is the most probable one, thats it. I've demonstrated that the word has many meanings, and that its used in the Quran with one of those other meanings or usages, i could get more but its not really worth the effort, thats why i keep linking you to older posts, as i don't think your 'question' is worth that much effort to address.

 

[beenie]

take it or leave it,

It is apparent that you have your mind made up on the matter, and regardless of the several answers we have given you, and the various text we have used to back our claims, you still believe as you did in the beginning of your post (and that's fine, so long as you don't present it as FACT).

There is no point in carrying on. You believe Islam allows for wife beating, and you have several Muslims right here on RF who refute that claim. Ignoring all of Badran's attempts, Starsoul's post full of Hadith, and my occasional definition clarification.

If you really intend on learning about Islam, you must do so with an open mind.

 

[Marble]

@Take it or leave it
Why are you so concerned with that question?
Are you a woman? Your profile doesn't give your sex.
Are you a Muslim? Are you a Muslim woman?

All organized religions place men over women.
If there should be an exception, I'm not aware of it.

A person can be cruel to a fellow human and talk himself/herself out by various means - religion being one of them.

 

[Riverwolf]

The status of women is rather low in scriptures of other religions too.
Here an example from the Manusmriti (Hindu law book):

Except, remember, most Hindus don't actually follow the Manusmriti. I've never actually read it.

While traditional, orthodox Hinduism does follow somewhat strict gender roles, with the husband working in the world and the wife working in the house (though able to work from home), Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami actually gave a legitimate reason as to why: it's better for children to have at least one parent at home. Heck, the most "offensive" thing he said about wives is that "they must be shy so that the husband is strong."

Be it known that I disagree with that statement. ^_^ And considering how great the rest of his philosophy is, I'm inclined to not hold it against him or his school, especially since he made it so clear that his teachings are guidelines, not commandments.

 

[Marble]

@Riverwolf
I agree with you that Hinduism is a vast ocean of teachings and the views of God are very diverse - some even believe that God is female rather that male.
I merly posted this to show that negative views of women and teachings of superiority of men over women can be found in many religions & religious texts, not just in Islam & Quran.

 

[nameless]

The status of women is rather low in scriptures of other religions too.
Here an example from the Manusmriti (Hindu law book):


source of the text

Hindus rejects Manusmriti, it contradicts vedic teachings. Many religious texts got altered during the British rule, they added and edited the verses.

 

[Riverwolf]

@Riverwolf
I agree with you that Hinduism is a vast ocean of teachings and the views of God are very diverse - some even believe that God is female rather that male.
I merly posted this to show that negative views of women and teachings of superiority of men over women can be found in many religions & religious texts, not just in Islam & Quran.

I know. ^_^

I just wanted to help deter any misunderstandings of Hinduism; you know how we are about that. lol