Does the Quran promote peaceful values? (I claim it does not.)

[icehorse]

Quote:
But the idea that a God would create me with a brain, give me horrible evidence for believing in his existence, and then punish me for not believing (based on such poor evidence), strikes me as a cruel God.

Let us discuss horrible it is

I guess you left off a word? Maybe you want to discuss if the evidence is horrible?

First question, Do you agree that if someone came to attack you, or your country, you should fight back ?

There might be exceptions, but mostly I agree. For example, would you agree that in WW II the U.S. attacked Germany? Sometimes an attack is necessary, so it's not so easy. Do you have any specific examples in mind?

As far as you personally being tolerant, are you saying that you were not a tolerant person before you became a practicing Muslim?

 

[Sabour]

Quote:

But the idea that a God would create me with a brain, give me horrible evidence for believing in his existence, and then punish me for not believing (based on such poor evidence), strikes me as a cruel God.


I guess you left off a word? Maybe you want to discuss if the evidence is horrible?

Yep. What did you mean by horrible.

There might be exceptions, but mostly I agree. For example, would you agree that in WW II the U.S. attacked Germany? Sometimes an attack is necessary, so it's not so easy. Do you have any specific examples in mind?

The verses in the Quraan about fighting. I think it is a concern no?

As far as you personally being tolerant, are you saying that you were not a tolerant person before you became a practicing Muslim?

Nope. I used to judge people, frown on them, never smile, make fun of some, and many other things to.

 

[icehorse]

Ok, horrible evidence. Maybe I should say instead "weak evidence". There is little or no evidence that I'm aware of that supports the idea that the Christian God exists, or that Allah exists, or any other God, Thor, Zeus, there is basically no evidence that any of them exist.

I know that Muslims say that the very fact that the Quran exists is evidence. But if you didn't know the background of the book and Muhammad, you would just see it as a book that any number of people could have written.

So, for someone with a logical, scientific worldview, I see no evidence that Allah (or any other God) exists.

The verses in the Quraan about fighting. I think it is a concern no?

Sure, it's a fine one (of many) concerns to discuss! Now I think anyone who has studied Islam in the modern world has heard that some Muslims like to interpret "jihad" as "inner struggle" or some such. If that's your point then we can just agree to disagree and move on...

How about the idea of "death to apostates"? Do you believe that Islamic scripture makes that law?

 

[Sabour]

Ok, horrible evidence. Maybe I should say instead "weak evidence". There is little or no evidence that I'm aware of that supports the idea that the Christian God exists, or that Allah exists, or any other God, Thor, Zeus, there is basically no evidence that any of them exist.

I know that Muslims say that the very fact that the Quran exists is evidence. But if you didn't know the background of the book and Muhammad, you would just see it as a book that any number of people could have written.

So, for someone with a logical, scientific worldview, I see no evidence that Allah (or any other God) exists.

Okay so far so good.


I suggest two things. First is to read my thread

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...es/162366-20-signs-god-exist-quraan-word.html

Second to read this about dr Gary Miller who came to islam.

Sure, it's a fine one (of many) concerns to discuss! Now I think anyone who has studied Islam in the modern world has heard that some Muslims like to interpret "jihad" as "inner struggle" or some such. If that's your point then we can just agree to disagree and move on...

Well am ok to say there is inner jihad and it really worth talking about. But there is other jihad too. The fighting jihad.

Wanna discuss those verses ?

How about the idea of "death to apostates"? Do you believe that Islamic scripture makes that law?

Makes that law ? No

Ever happened? Yes

 

[Sabour]

Sorry I forgot this link The Man who Challenged the Quran – Gary Miller , Later became Muslim | Beauty of ISLAM

 

[icehorse]

One-answer - Well the debate about the existence of God has been going on for a long, long time now. I'm not alone when I say that I see no good evidence. So where does that leave me in a Muslim's eye as far as whether I'm doomed?

As far as apostasy, it's an easy question to Google and so I quickly found several verses (these are from Quran.com):

4:89 They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah . But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper.

9:74 They swear by Allah that they did not say [anything against the Prophet] while they had said the word of disbelief and disbelieved after their [pretense of] Islam and planned that which they were not to attain. And they were not resentful except [for the fact] that Allah and His Messenger had enriched them of His bounty. So if they repent, it is better for them; but if they turn away, Allah will punish them with a painful punishment in this world and the Hereafter. And there will not be for them on earth any protector or helper.

5:54 O you who have believed, whoever of you should revert from his religion - Allah will bring forth [in place of them] a people He will love and who will love Him [who are] humble toward the believers, powerful against the disbelievers; they strive in the cause of Allah and do not fear the blame of a critic. That is the favor of Allah ; He bestows it upon whom He wills. And Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing.

There are also many instructions in the Hadith to kill apostates, but in this thread we're trying to stick to the Quran.

One-answer, let me ask you from a different perspective: When you step back and think about the fact that the Quran criticizes non-believers over 500 times what conclusions do you draw about how you should think of non-believers? I understand you can find a few peaceful verses, but how does the number 500 feel to you? Why so many instructions?

 

[Sabour]

One-answer - Well the debate about the existence of God has been going on for a long, long time now. I'm not alone when I say that I see no good evidence. So where does that leave me in a Muslim's eye as far as whether I'm doomed?

No one on earth can give you an answer for that.
I don't know your reasons. I don't know if you are true about your approach to Islam. I don't know if the clear message of Islam has been delivered to you.

Please don't take that as a mistrust. But I really don't know what is the whole picture and your whole experience with Islam. One thing I am sure of is that Allah is just and no body will ever object to His justice and this includes you.

This is not to put pressure on you, on the contrary. If you are true to yourself and your approach this should be a relief.

Just clear up your mind and approach the matter with an open heart. Just pray from your heart to God to show you the right path. Just try it.


As for apostasy, we have to understand the whole message of Islam.

First of all, Islam isn't unjust to anyone.
Second, when something happens in Islam, it doesn't mean that it is always the case. For example,it is reported that Caliph Omar Ibn lKhatab didn't work by the punishment imposed on the one who stole always.

The first case was when two workers for a man came. They stole from the person they work for and that person was demanding for their punishment.He asked them about the reason they did it. They said that the person they were working for was unjust and their salary wasn't enough to satisfy their basic needs. He said to the person, if I ever know that they stole again, the punishment would be for you.

Another case is when there was a hunger problem. I stopped working by that punishment.

Similarly, the killing of the apostates is not a random killing. It has reasons.

It is clear in the Quraan that there is no compulsion in religion. And I have presented you with some similar verses.

So why killing the apostates?

Like jihad is self defense, killing apostates has the same reasons. Let's look at the verses.

The first verse you referred to wasn't about apostates, it was about hypocrites.

4:88 What is [the matter] with you [that you are] two groups concerning the hypocrites, while Allah has made them fall back [into error and disbelief] for what they earned. Do you wish to guide those whom Allah has sent astray? And he whom Allah sends astray - never will you find for him a way [of guidance].

4:89 They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah . But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper.

These were in case of war.
Furthermore the verse 4:90 explains it and let us look about the exeptions.

4:90 Except for those who take refuge with a people between yourselves and whom is a treaty or those who come to you, their hearts strained at [the prospect of] fighting you or fighting their own people. And if Allah had willed, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they remove themselves from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not made for you a cause [for fighting] against them.


Concerning verse 9:74

9:74 They swear by Allah that they did not say [anything against the Prophet] while they had said the word of disbelief and disbelieved after their [pretense of] Islam and planned that which they were not to attain. And they were not resentful except [for the fact] that Allah and His Messenger had enriched them of His bounty. So if they repent, it is better for them; but if they turn away, Allah will punish them with a painful punishment in this world and the Hereafter. And there will not be for them on earth any protector or helper.

9:75 And what is [the matter] with you that you fight not in the cause of Allah and [for] the oppressed among men, women, and children who say, "Our Lord, take us out of this city of oppressive people and appoint for us from Yourself a protector and appoint for us from Yourself a helper?"

I think that verse explains verse 74.

As for the verse 54

5:54 O you who have believed, whoever of you should revert from his religion - Allah will bring forth [in place of them] a people He will love and who will love Him [who are] humble toward the believers, powerful against the disbelievers; they strive in the cause of Allah and do not fear the blame of a critic. That is the favor of Allah ; He bestows it upon whom He wills. And Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing.

I didn't understand what is your concern with that?

Is it that Allah will bring forth (in place of them). ? All people will eventually die, this doesn't mean that they will automatically die.

If the concern is powerful against the disbelievers, than yes, for those who fought you and their actions are derived from the love of Allah and not the love of any other.


There are also many instructions in the Hadith to kill apostates, but in this thread we're trying to stick to the Quran.

Now just let me present you with one of the major strategies some use to make Islam look violent.

They say that Islam says kill them wherever you overtake them.

Actually this is true. But let's look at the context.

Here are the full verses

2:190-194


190 Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.

191 And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.

192 And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

193 Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors.

Notice that all was take is five words out of this context.

Let us reflect on the verses a little.

Verse 190 sets the first condition in which you would fight them. Not only that, it says don't transgress against whom? The same people who are fighting you. These are the conditions to fight them

Verse 191 says kill them wherever you overtake them but what is the condition? It is followed by expel them from wherever they have expelled you. This means you are fighting those who drove you out of your home. Something that all countries do. It is their right.

Verse 192 indicates that if they have stopped you should stop to. You don't say they started and I will finish them of. It adds that Allah is forgiving and merciful.

Verse 193 remind us why we are fighting. We are n ot fighting for revenge even though they are driving us out of our home. We are fighting for a much better cause. Verse 193 reminds us another time there should be no agression if they stopped.


This is Jihad we are talking about in the verses in which only 5 words are taken out of context.

One-answer, let me ask you from a different perspective: When you step back and think about the fact that the Quran criticizes non-believers over 500 times what conclusions do you draw about how you should think of non-believers? I understand you can find a few peaceful verses, but how does the number 500 feel to you? Why so many instructions?

I conclude that Allah is giving me how disbelievers think. Look Quraan is for all people who have different reactions towards things. Some need fear to step away from things. Some need logical thinking. Some look for rewards.

It is not about how I should think about believers. It is about what they do and why they are wrong.

The verses you are referring to as peaceful are not few. For example, there are like 110 verses of Jihad in the Quraan out of like 6400 verese or something like that.

 

[Sabour]

Do you know how many verses talk about righteousness in Chapter 2 Only ?

Explanation from the Quraan:
2:177 Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or the west, but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in Allah , the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets and gives wealth, in spite of love for it, to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveler, those who ask [for help], and for freeing slaves; [and who] establishes prayer and gives zakah; [those who] fulfill their promise when they promise; and [those who] are patient in poverty and hardship and during battle. Those are the ones who have been true, and it is those who are the righteous.

Righteous in Quraan

The concept of righteous, or the word if you want, has been mentioned in the Quraan many many times. For instance I will try to cover this concept only from chapter 2 from the Quraan.

Righteous in chapter 2:

Verse 2: This is the book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah - ( a guidance for those conscious of Allah المتقين
Verse 3 – 4- 5: explanation: Who believe in the unseen, establish prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them,3 And who believe in what has been revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what was revealed before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain [in faith].4Those are upon

guidance from their Lord, and it is those who are the successful.5

41: And believe in what I have sent down confirming that which is [already] with you, and be not the first to disbelieve in it. And do not exchange My signs for a small price, and fear [only] Me. ( fear only Me فاتقو&#1606
48: And fear a Day when no soul will suffice for another soul at all, nor will intercession be accepted from it, nor will compensation be taken from it, nor will they be aided. ( fear a day واتقو&#1575

103: And if they had believed and feared Allah , then the reward from Allah would have been [far] better, if they only knew. (feared Allah واتقو&#1575


179 And there is for you in legal retribution [saving of] life, O you [people] of understanding, that you may become righteous.

180: Prescribed for you when death approaches [any] one of you if he leaves wealth [is that he should make] a bequest for the parents and near relatives according to what is acceptable - a duty upon the righteous. (المتقي&#1606


183: O you who have believed, decreed upon you is fasting as it was decreed upon those before you that you may become righteous –( تتقو&#1606

187: It has been made permissible for you the night preceding fasting to go to your wives [for sexual relations]. They are clothing for you and you are clothing for them. Allah knows that you used to deceive yourselves, so He accepted your repentance and forgave you. So now, have relations with them and seek that which Allah has decreed for you. And eat and drink until the white thread of dawn becomes distinct to you from the black thread [of night]. Then complete the fast until the sunset. And do not have relations with them as long as you are staying for worship in the mosques. These are the limits [set by] Allah , so do not approach them. Thus does Allah make clear His ordinances to the people that they may become righteous. (يتقو&#1606


223:Your wives are a place of sowing of seed for you, so come to your place of cultivation however you wish and put forth [righteousness] for yourselves. And fear Allah and know that you will meet Him. And give good tidings to the believers.

224: And do not make [your oath by] Allah an excuse against being righteous and fearing Allah and making peace among people. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.


231: And when you divorce women and they have [nearly] fulfilled their term, either retain them according to acceptable terms or release them according to acceptable terms, and do not keep them, intending harm, to transgress [against them]. And whoever does that has certainly wronged himself. And do not take the verses of Allah in jest. And remember the favor of Allah upon you and what has been revealed to you of the Book and wisdom by which He instructs you. And fear Allah and know that Allah is Knowing of all things. (fear Allah واتقو&#1575


233 Mothers may breastfeed their children two complete years for whoever wishes to complete the nursing [period]. Upon the father is the mothers' provision and their clothing according to what is acceptable. No person is charged with more than his capacity. No mother should be harmed through her child, and no father through his child. And upon the [father's] heir is [a duty] like that [of the father]. And if they both desire weaning through mutual consent from both of them and consultation, there is no blame upon either of them. And if you wish to have your children nursed by a substitute, there is no blame upon you as long as you give payment according to what is acceptable. And fear Allah and know that Allah is Seeing of what you do. ( fear Allah واتقو&#1575

237 And if you divorce them before you have touched them and you have already specified for them an obligation, then [give] half of what you specified - unless they forego the right or the one in whose hand is the marriage contract foregoes it. And to forego it is nearer to righteousness. And do not forget graciousness between you. Indeed Allah , of whatever you do, is Seeing. (nearer to righteousness للتقو&#1609

241 And for divorced women is a provision according to what is acceptable - a duty upon the righteous. (المتقي&#1606

278 O you who have believed, fear Allah and give up what remains [due to you] of interest, if you should be believers. ( fear Allah)

282 O you who have believed, when you contract a debt for a specified term, write it down. And let a scribe write [it] between you in justice. Let no scribe refuse to write as Allah has taught him. So let him write and let the one who has the obligation dictate. And let him fear Allah , his Lord, and not leave anything out of it. But if the one who has the obligation is of limited understanding or weak or unable to dictate himself, then let his guardian dictate in justice. And bring to witness two witnesses from among your men. And if there are not two men [available], then a man and two women from those whom you accept as witnesses - so that if one of the women errs, then the other can remind her. And let not the witnesses refuse when they are called upon. And do not be [too] weary to write it, whether it is small or large, for its [specified] term. That is more just in the sight of Allah and stronger as evidence and more likely to prevent doubt between you, except when it is an immediate transaction which you conduct among yourselves. For [then] there is no blame upon you if you do not write it. And take witnesses when you conclude a contract. Let no scribe be harmed or any witness. For if you do so, indeed, it is [grave] disobedience in you. And fear Allah . And Allah teaches you. And Allah is Knowing of all things. (fear Allah)


Now let us take a look at the other words in Arabic that also mean righteous

44: Do you order righteousness of the people and forget yourselves while you recite the Scripture? Then will you not reason? (البر in Arabic, it has the same meaning as تقوى which is righteousness)

25:And give good tidings to those who believe and do righteous deeds that they will have gardens [in Paradise] beneath which rivers flow. Whenever they are provided with a provision of fruit therefrom, they will say, "This is what we were provided with before." And it is given to them in likeness. And they will have therein purified spouses, and they will abide therein eternally.(righteous deeds الصالحا&#1578

62: Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans [before Prophet Muhammad] - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.( did righteousness صالحا&#1611

82: But they who believe and do righteous deeds - those are the companions of Paradise; they will abide therein eternally. (righteous deeds صالحا&#1611

130 And who would be averse to the religion of Abraham except one who makes a fool of himself. And We had chosen him in this world, and indeed he, in the Hereafter, will be among the righteous. (الصالحي&#1606

277: Indeed, those who believe and do righteous deeds and establish prayer and give zakah will have their reward with their Lord, and there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve. (الصالحا&#1578



I used to think the way you are thinking. But once I took the time to understand Islam, I got the big picture.​

 

[icehorse]

One-answer,

In response to the question about how you feel about the 500 verses you said:

I conclude that Allah is giving me how disbelievers think. Look Quraan is for all people who have different reactions towards things. Some need fear to step away from things. Some need logical thinking. Some look for rewards.

It is not about how I should think about believers. It is about what they do and why they are wrong.

The verses you are referring to as peaceful are not few. For example, there are like 110 verses of Jihad in the Quraan out of like 6400 verese or something like that.

People and ideas and things can have "fatal flaws". For example, let's say that a company builds a fantastic car in every way, except that sometimes the wheels fall off. It's appropriate for us to judge that car as a bad car, even though it's mostly a good car. If the wheels fall off, that's a "fatal flaw". Imagine a person lives a really good life. He has a wonderful family, works hard, is charitable and so on. But, once every Spring something comes over him and he commits an armed robbery. Once again, he will be judged not for all his good deeds, but instead for his "fatal flaw".

In a similar way, you can find many good verses in the Quran, but we MUST judge such an important book by it's fatal flaws (if it has any). To me, telling young children 500 times to distrust non-believers is a fatal flaw. The world can NOT survive the sorts of messages that create fear between people. You can see videos of young, young Muslim children who will tell you that Jews are pigs and apes - because that's what the Quran says! This is a fatal flaw.

In the last 13 years the world has seen 23,000 terrorist attacks committed by Muslims, ALL of whom can rightly claim that they are doing what their scripture tells them. Their scripture tells them that apostates should be killed, and we see sectarian violence - all over the world.

One-answer, I know that the world has many problems. But I'm sorry, it seems clear to me that people who take the Quran too seriously cause many of these problems. Not all of our problems, but many of them.

 

[Sabour]

One-answer,

In response to the question about how you feel about the 500 verses you said:



People and ideas and things can have "fatal flaws". For example, let's say that a company builds a fantastic car in every way, except that sometimes the wheels fall off. It's appropriate for us to judge that car as a bad car, even though it's mostly a good car. If the wheels fall off, that's a "fatal flaw". Imagine a person lives a really good life. He has a wonderful family, works hard, is charitable and so on. But, once every Spring something comes over him and he commits an armed robbery. Once again, he will be judged not for all his good deeds, but instead for his "fatal flaw".

In a similar way, you can find many good verses in the Quran, but we MUST judge such an important book by it's fatal flaws (if it has any). To me, telling young children 500 times to distrust non-believers is a fatal flaw. The world can NOT survive the sorts of messages that create fear between people. You can see videos of young, young Muslim children who will tell you that Jews are pigs and apes - because that's what the Quran says! This is a fatal flaw.

In the last 13 years the world has seen 23,000 terrorist attacks committed by Muslims, ALL of whom can rightly claim that they are doing what their scripture tells them. Their scripture tells them that apostates should be killed, and we see sectarian violence - all over the world.

One-answer, I know that the world has many problems. But I'm sorry, it seems clear to me that people who take the Quran too seriously cause many of these problems. Not all of our problems, but many of them.

Friend,

In that case, why before I was a practicing muslim I used not to stand people from other religion, but after I came a practicing muslim I understood my religion. And well here I am.

 

[icehorse]

One-answer,

You seem like a fine fellow, patient and thoughtful. And I'm glad that you have found good messages in Islam.

That said, young, young children should never be taught that other people are pigs and monkeys. A woman should never be punished for being raped or beaten. A novelist should never have a death threat placed on him by a famous leader for the made-up crime of "blasphemy". Embassies should not be destroyed because of cartoons deemed to be blasphemous. Honor killings should never occur. Girls should not be maimed for the "crime" of learning to read. The list goes on and on...

We have heard several times that these are not Islamic values but cultural ones. But we have not yet heard how it can be that these similar behaviors occur predominately in a wide variety of cultures and geographical regions, whose only point in common is Islam? (And, to reiterate, it is all too easy to use Islamic scripture to justify these behaviors. And to further reiterate, the perpetrators of these behaviors often cite Islam as their justification.)

This is not to place all the world's problems at the feet of Islam - far from it. But we need to be honest about the problems this ideology does foster.

 

[Sabour]

One-answer,

You seem like a fine fellow, patient and thoughtful. And I'm glad that you have found good messages in Islam.

That said, young, young children should never be taught that other people are pigs and monkeys. A woman should never be punished for being raped or beaten. A novelist should never have a death threat placed on him by a famous leader for the made-up crime of "blasphemy". Embassies should not be destroyed because of cartoons deemed to be blasphemous. Honor killings should never occur. Girls should not be maimed for the "crime" of learning to read. The list goes on and on...

We have heard several times that these are not Islamic values but cultural ones. But we have not yet heard how it can be that these similar behaviors occur predominately in a wide variety of cultures and geographical regions, whose only point in common is Islam? (And, to reiterate, it is all too easy to use Islamic scripture to justify these behaviors. And to further reiterate, the perpetrators of these behaviors often cite Islam as their justification.)

This is not to place all the world's problems at the feet of Islam - far from it. But we need to be honest about the problems this ideology does foster.

With all respect, you don't have any idea how wrong you are.

From all what you said about Islam, none is correct.

 

[icehorse]

With all respect, you don't have any idea how wrong you are.

From all what you said about Islam, none is correct.

Wrong in what way? That these things don't happen in the name of Islam? Or that it's okay that they do? Or that it's not Islam but culture? Or...?

 

[Sabour]

Wrong in what way? That these things don't happen in the name of Islam? Or that it's okay that they do? Or that it's not Islam but culture? Or...?

Would you watch a video that explains it ?

 

[icehorse]

Would you watch a video that explains it ?

if it's not too long, post a link!

But can you give a summary of the video here - which of the questions I asked does it address?

 

[Penumbra]

From reading it, as well as from seeing its results around Islamic countries of the world, and seeing surveyed opinions of Muslims around the world, I believe it's clear that the Qur'an does not promote peaceful values. It seems to directly promote extreme tribalism and malevolent beliefs including all sorts of excitedly described physical tortures in the afterlife and various broad insults for non-Muslims, based on example verses in the OP and more.

To the extent that individual Muslims are peaceful, and not just in the sense of not killing other people but in the sense of truly appreciating other cultures and not being tribalistic, it seems to generally be in spite of their religion and these verses, rather than because of it.

 

[Sabour]

Basically, looking back at the conversation between us I find it a bit weird.

Anyways here is the link, I think you are judging Muslims and not Islam.

Here is a link of how wrong this may be

[youtube]Jy9tNyp03M0[/youtube]
Mehdi Hasan | Islam Is A Peaceful Religion | Oxford Union - YouTube

 

[icehorse]

Hi One-answer,

No question that Medhi is a skilled debater.

I've heard Medhi Hasan speak on several videos like this one, and I watched this entire debate. From my perspective, everyone in this debate - Medhi AND his opponents - were unprepared and to some degree intellectually dishonest. So I'm not knocking Medhi alone, this simply wasn't a high quality debate.

Specifically I was able to catch Medhi repeatedly using several fallacy arguments (strawmen, gish gallop and false equivalencies at least). Second, he focused a lot of attention on the small number of terrorists in the world. Notice that I have not been focusing on terrorists much at all. Third he hinted at the term "Islamophobe". For my money, this term - all by itself - is a fundamentally dishonest term. Anyone who uses it discredits himself.

So this video doesn't answer your claim that I'm wrong about Islam and Islamic scripture... wrong in what ways? Specifically in what ways that I've claimed - not what others might claim.

_____________
defend net neutrality - "without love in the game, insanity's king"

 

[Sabour]

I'm wrong about Islam and Islamic scripture... wrong in what ways? Specifically in what ways that I've claimed - not what others might claim.

That said, young, young children should never be taught that other people are pigs and monkeys.

You are focusing on little verses and disregarding the others.

I've talked about righteousness you didn't mind them.
I've talked about how we should deal with others, I only presented few verses, still you didn't mind them.
I've talked about the Jihad verses and showed you how just Islam is even during combat, you didn't mind.

Quraan is not taking seperate verses on it's own, as a matter of fact Islam is a whole system. You can't take verses alone and judge. The only way to judge Islam is as a whole part. Judge the whole Quraan and not on taking certain verses and making out a conclusion.

A woman should never be punished for being raped or beaten.

This doesn't happen !!!!

A novelist should never have a death threat placed on him by a famous leader for the made-up crime of "blasphemy".

During wars I think it is. Especially if it were from the inside and the purpose was making chaos. No?

Embassies should not be destroyed because of cartoons deemed to be blasphemous.

Judge Islam, not muslims.

Do you know who are the people who do this? The same people who blasphemous God in their everyday life.

Do you know how many real muslim says this is right? None.

Honor killings should never occur. Girls should not be maimed for the "crime" of learning to read. The list goes on and on...

This is where stereotypes begin.

 

[Sabour]

Hi One-answer,

No question that Medhi is a skilled debater.

I've heard Medhi Hasan speak on several videos like this one, and I watched this entire debate. From my perspective, everyone in this debate - Medhi AND his opponents - were unprepared and to some degree intellectually dishonest. So I'm not knocking Medhi alone, this simply wasn't a high quality debate.

Specifically I was able to catch Medhi repeatedly using several fallacy arguments (strawmen, gish gallop and false equivalencies at least). Second, he focused a lot of attention on the small number of terrorists in the world. Notice that I have not been focusing on terrorists much at all. Third he hinted at the term "Islamophobe". For my money, this term - all by itself - is a fundamentally dishonest term. Anyone who uses it discredits himself.

So this video doesn't answer your claim that I'm wrong about Islam and Islamic scripture... wrong in what ways? Specifically in what ways that I've claimed - not what others might claim.

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defend net neutrality - "without love in the game, insanity's king"

From reading it, as well as from seeing its results around Islamic countries of the world, and seeing surveyed opinions of Muslims around the world, I believe it's clear that the Qur'an does not promote peaceful values. It seems to directly promote extreme tribalism and malevolent beliefs including all sorts of excitedly described physical tortures in the afterlife and various broad insults for non-Muslims, based on example verses in the OP and more.

To the extent that individual Muslims are peaceful, and not just in the sense of not killing other people but in the sense of truly appreciating other cultures and not being tribalistic, it seems to generally be in spite of their religion and these verses, rather than because of it.

I think you are wrong.

All claims against the Quraan are taken out of context.