Does the Quran promote peaceful values? (I claim it does not.)

[TashaN]

TashaN:

First off, your requirements for proof don't match my claims, but I think we're close enough...

Again, I forget the rules for providing links, can anyone explain simply how to provide links that are within the rules of this website?

Simple. Post a brief description about the relevance of your link and put the link, the same as i did.

TashaN, I was easily able to find out that 35 countries use Sharia to some extent in their legal system. I was also able to find out that (from the Wikipedia article on Sharia):

What do you mean by "to some extent"? it's either they apply shariah or they don't! I'm eager to see which country fully apply shariah and say it is ok for a man to beat his wife.

work_in_progress: You bring up historical context that I'm not sure I agree with, and that perhaps you ought to start in another thread? (I'd respond if you do.)

But briefly, Islamic history is rife with sectarian violence, it's own imperialism, misogyny, homophobia, anti-semitism, intolerance and so on, going back 1400 years. And if you want to look at more recent history, shouldn't you also look at instances where roles were reversed, such as Turkey, Syria, Kosovo and East Timor? Again - this is a big topic, a separate thread perhaps?

I don't understand why you came up with this all of the sudden! Is this your biggest shot?

Anyway, let us focus on wife beating first then we see what other aspects you would like to discuss.

 

[icehorse]

TashaN,

First off and to clarify: On the one hand I'm trying to stay on topic. On the other hand, I've been accused several times of not responding to other posts. So, if other posters change the topic my response has been to briefly respond, and then return to the main topic.

But I agree, let's stick with the main topic, which at this point is women's equality in Islam and specifically wife beating.

Here's a link entitled "Islam and Domestic Violence":

Islam and domestic violence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you read this article you'll see that the situation varies from country to country, no surprise there. In fact, in many regions the view of 4:34 is the same as you've said. Also, no surprise there.

But there are also regions that view 4:34 the way that I've been claiming. Here are a couple of quotes from the article:

In 2010, the highest court of United Arab Emirates (Federal Supreme Court) considered a lower court's ruling, and upheld a husband's right to "chastise" his wife and children with physical violence. Article 53 of the United Arab Emirates' penal code acknowledges the right of a "chastisement by a husband to his wife and the chastisement of minor children" so long as the assault does not exceed the limits prescribed by Shari'a.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_domestic_violence#cite_note-33

In Lebanon, KAFA, an organization campaigning against violence and the exploitation of women, estimates that as many as three-quarters of all Lebanese women have suffered physical abuse at the hands of husbands or male relatives at some point in their lives. An effort has been underway to remove domestic violence cases from Shari'a driven religious courts to civil penal code driven courts.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_domestic_violence#cite_note-34http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_domestic_violence#cite_note-35Social workers claim failure of religious courts in addressing numerous instances of domestic abuse in Syria, Pakistan, Egypt, Palestine, Morocco, Iran, Yemen and Saudi Arabia.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_domestic_violence#cite_note-36

According to HRW 2013 report, Afghanistan has one of the highest incidence rates of domestic violence in the world. Domestic violence is so common that 85 per cent of women admit to experiencing it. 60% of all women report being victims of multiple forms of serial violence.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_domestic_violence#cite_note-58Afghanistan is the only country in which the female suicide rate is higher than that of males.

According to a WHO, United Nations study, 30% of women in rural Bangladesh reported their first sexual experience to be forced.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_domestic_violence#cite_note-60About 40% report having experienced domestic violence from their intimate partner, and 50% in rural regions report experiencing sexual violence.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_domestic_violence#cite_note-61 Statistics from four United Nations studies, from 1990s, show that 16-19% of the women (age less than 50) were victims of domestic abuse within the previous 12 month period. 40-47% of the women had been subject to domestic violence during some period of their life. The studies were performed in villages (1992, 1993), Dhaka (2002) and Matlab (2002).http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_domestic_violence#cite_note-UN54-62
About 90% of women in Bangladesh are practicing Muslims, which indicates that many Muslim women are victims of physical domestic violence in this country.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_domestic_violence#cite_note-63From a World Health Organization (WHO) study, of which Bangladesh was 1 of 10 participating countries, it was found that less than 2% of domestic abuse victims seek support from the community to resolve abusive situations, primarily because they know that they won't receive the support they need to remedy the issue.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_domestic_violence#cite_note-SFL-64
Naved and Perrson write in their article "Factors Associated with Physical Spousal Abuse of Women During Pregnancy in Bangladesh" that women who are pregnant are more likely to be abused. A study on Pakistan Rural Access and Mobility Study (PRAMS) data showed that 67% of perpetrators were husbands or partners". Bangladesh was found to be one of the countries with a high rate of domestic violence resulting in death during pregnancy by a United Nations study.

In Iran the nature of domestic violence is complicated by both a national culture and authoritative state that support control, oppression and violence against women.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_domestic_violence#cite_note-Moradian-4
A World Health Organization (WHO) study in Babol found that within the previous year 15.0% of wives had been physically abused, 42.4% had been sexually abused and 81.5% had been psychologically abused (to various degrees) by their husbands, blaming low income, young age, unemployment and low education.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_domestic_violence#cite_note-73
In 2004 a study of domestic violence was undertaken by the Women's Center for Presidential Advisory, Ministry of Higher Education and The Interior Ministry of capital cities in Iran's 28 provinces. 66% married women in Iran are subjected to some kind of domestic violence in the first year of their marriage, either by their husbands or by their in-laws.

According to Ahmad Shafaat, an Islamic scholar, "If the husband beats a wife without respecting the limits set down by the Qur'an and Hadith, then she can take him to court and if ruled in favor has the right to apply the law of retaliation and beat the husband as he beat her."

Until recently, in Turkey and Egypt, if a man raped a woman, he could avoid prosecution by marrying the woman he raped. (What a horrible outcome for the woman!)

==

TashaN, As I said, in this article there are many passages that support your views, and of course that's really good news.

The problem is that in many regions men interpret Islamic scripture to support the idea that men are superior to women, and that men can beat women "when necessary".

TashaN asked:

What do you mean by "to some extent"? it's either they apply shariah or they don't! I'm eager to see which country fully apply shariah and say it is ok for a man to beat his wife.

As you well know, Sharia is most frequently applied "to some extent". Here's a link to a map that verifies this claim:

Application of sharia law by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[icehorse]

ad hominem much?

 

[Scimitar]

Look who is talking

 

[Breathe]

my own business

That's pretty impressive judging from your location. What's your business in? Was it tough to get it going?
(It's off-topic but at least the thread is no longer a train wreck. )

 

[Smart_Guy]

Um, I don't mean to brag about my poor English or any thing, but doesn't "my own business" figuratively mean things that people do for themselves in general?

Something like: "I was minding my own business driving my junk old car at a very high speed when I highway patrol stopped me and gave me a speeding ticket"?

 

[Revoltingest]

Um, I don't mean to brag about my poor English or any thing, but doesn't "my own business" figuratively mean things that people do for themselves in general?

Something like: "I was minding my own business driving my junk old car at a very high speed when I highway patrol stopped me and gave me a speeding ticket"?

Your example is the wrong context.
It should be something which didn't warrant a problem.
I'll fix it for you:
"I was minding my own business driving my junk old car at a normal speed
when I highway patrol stopped me and demanded to see my license."

 

[Scimitar]

That's pretty impressive judging from your location. What's your business in? Was it tough to get it going?
(It's off-topic but at least the thread is no longer a train wreck. )

Well, any business is tough to start up, and get going but perseverance and a passion for it, do pay off

Why should my location be a problem? I'm one of those people who sense opportunity when most feel objections. Serves me well

 

[TashaN]

TashaN,

First off and to clarify: On the one hand I'm trying to stay on topic. On the other hand, I've been accused several times of not responding to other posts. So, if other posters change the topic my response has been to briefly respond, and then return to the main topic.

But I agree, let's stick with the main topic, which at this point is women's equality in Islam and specifically wife beating.

Here's a link entitled "Islam and Domestic Violence":

Islam and domestic violence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you read this article you'll see that the situation varies from country to country, no surprise there. In fact, in many regions the view of 4:34 is the same as you've said. Also, no surprise there.

But there are also regions that view 4:34 the way that I've been claiming. Here are a couple of quotes from the article:


Until recently, in Turkey and Egypt, if a man raped a woman, he could avoid prosecution by marrying the woman he raped. (What a horrible outcome for the woman!)

==

TashaN, As I said, in this article there are many passages that support your views, and of course that's really good news.

The problem is that in many regions men interpret Islamic scripture to support the idea that men are superior to women, and that men can beat women "when necessary".

TashaN asked:

As you well know, Sharia is most frequently applied "to some extent". Here's a link to a map that verifies this claim:

Application of sharia law by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A record of violence doesn't prove it was approved by Shariah. Until now i don't see which court fully apply shariah and allowed a husband to beat his wife. You failed to provide me with what i asked for. All the ones you have provided are either don't apply shariah or their court mix between islamic and cultural laws.

So the question still persist, show me examples of courts fully apply shariah law which doesn't mix it with cultural laws and allow wife to be beaten.

I'm still waiting for your response. All the best in your search.

 

[icehorse]

Hi TashaN,

You said:

So the question still persist, show me examples of courts fully apply shariah law which doesn't mix it with cultural laws and allow wife to be beaten.

I think this is a slightly different question than the one you asked before, and I also think the difference is significant. In fact I think that phrased this way no absolute proof would be possible on ANY question. That said, I think we could make some progress.

Let me start by asking you a few questions so that I know what you'd consider a reasonable response:

Do you think that Muslims in southern Africa, northern Africa, the ME, southern Asia, and SE Asia all share the same culture?

I'm not trying to be tricky here, I'm interested in knowing what's really true in the world.

If Muslims in these various regions have different cultures, but behave in some similar ways, would you agree that the doctrines of Islam would be a significant factor in these similar behaviors? It seems to me that this would be a logical conclusion.

Thoughts?

 

[TashaN]

Hi TashaN,

You said: I think this is a slightly different question than the one you asked before, and I also think the difference is significant. In fact I think that phrased this way no absolute proof would be possible on ANY question. That said, I think we could make some progress.

No, it's still the same question but i rephrased it so you can understand what i meant.

Let me start by asking you a few questions so that I know what you'd consider a reasonable response:

Do you think that Muslims in southern Africa, northern Africa, the ME, southern Asia, and SE Asia all share the same culture?

I'm not trying to be tricky here, I'm interested in knowing what's really true in the world.

If Muslims in these various regions have different cultures, but behave in some similar ways, would you agree that the doctrines of Islam would be a significant factor in these similar behaviors? It seems to me that this would be a logical conclusion.

Thoughts?

This is pure generalization. I didn't ask you to bring tons of countries, just pick 3 at least, 3 countries where they practice shariah law fully and they made wife beating legal by law.

If you keep generalizing i'm going to conclude there is islamophobia and racism involved here and you might believe that you are superior than us.

Please stay on topic and no need for generalizations.

 

[icehorse]

Hi TashaN,

This is pure generalization. I didn't ask you to bring tons of countries, just pick 3 at least, 3 countries where they practice shariah law fully and they made wife beating legal by law.

Every time you pose the challenge it changes a bit, and the changes are significant. It's no trick to pose unsolvable challenges, anyone can do that.

How about something along the lines of this: Can I find several countries that include Sharia in their legal system in which wife beating is NOT illegal or in which - in deference to Sharia - claims of wife beating are often ignored?

 

[icehorse]

Hi TashaN,

I don't know - I'm not sure I like my phrasing much better than yours. But I will say the the need for "total Sharia" seems artificial to me...

Back later...

 

[Breathe]

Why should my location be a problem? I'm one of those people who sense opportunity when most feel objections. Serves me well

It's an expensive place to run a business, right?

 

[TashaN]

Hi TashaN,

Every time you pose the challenge it changes a bit, and the changes are significant. It's no trick to pose unsolvable challenges, anyone can do that.

How about something along the lines of this: Can I find several countries that include Sharia in their legal system in which wife beating is NOT illegal or in which - in deference to Sharia - claims of wife beating are often ignored?

Dear icehorse, feel free to reach to the conclusion you plan to reach at, you are on your own on this.

I have done my part along with others to explain with solid proofs that your claims are baseless. Earlier i felt somehow that you might have had some sense into what you were saying.

Later on, despite the facts that i had the feelings that we were going on circles but i gave you the benefit of the doubt, but you didn't stop spouting nonsense about Islam and Muslims, and i was patient but that's it. Your lack for any genuine motives drove you to play with words and generate an excuse after another for not accepting our solid clear answers for your questions and misconceptions.

Therefore, i can claim without the slightest doubt that i and others have refuted all your claims and rendered all your arguments baseless.

Peace be upon you and upon all my brothers and sisters in here, and we might see each other on other discussions when you re-think your current positions, and revise your attitude and belittling behaviors, which stem from nowhere but perceived moral superiority.

One last piece of advice, learn to respect what others believe in, and DON'T patronise them because they can see through that even if they didn't say it out loud to you.

Icehorse, farewell.

 

[icehorse]

Hi TashaN,

If you keep generalizing i'm going to conclude there is islamophobia and racism involved here and you might believe that you are superior than us.

These are two interesting conclusions. First off, the very word "islamophobia" is suspicious. What does this word mean to you? If you look at the word itself, it means "An irrational fear of the ideas of Islam". I suspect that that's not what you think it means,but I won't put words into your mouth.

Next you conclude racism. Wow! Tell me again what race Muslims are? Of course there's no answer to that question because Islam is an ideology that spans across many cultures and many races. So how could one be racist concerning Islam.

One last piece of advice, learn to respect what others believe in, and DON'T patronise them because they can see through that even if they didn't say it out loud to you.

TashaN, We're trying to have a complex debate here. If you discover I've made a logical error and tell me, that's not patronizing. If I find you've made a logical error and tell you, that also is not patronizing.

Therefore, i can claim without the slightest doubt that i and others have refuted all your claims and rendered all your arguments baseless.

Of course you can "claim" anything you want. The point of debate is to make claims and then find out if you can prove them. The other thing to keep in mind is that at this point there have been over 2300 views of this thread. So you and Scimitar can "claim" victory all you want, but the real question is whether your claims convince anyone.

== back to the topic

To recap, the whole thread is about peaceful values. We've discussed only a few issues, and I've specifically avoided many controversial topics. The current topic is wife beating.

Below are a list of articles concerning wife beating in Islam. I looked for articles across many regions and many cultures. Geographically these articles discuss wife beating in Islam going from Africa, through the ME and all the way to Bangladesh. Finally, there is a link to a world map that shows the degree of physical security that women have. If you overlay this map with a world map of where the world's largest Muslim populations occur, you will see a strong correlation. In other words, if you look at these two maps you can say that:

* Statistically, where many Muslims live, women are less physically secure. *

Articles (roughly from West (Africa) to East (SE Asia) ):

Nigeria: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/11/international/africa/11women.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Tanzania: allAfrica.com: Tanzania: Zanzibar Men Still Beat Their Wives, Says Report (Page 1 of 3)

UAE: The Arab Emirates: Where It’s Okay To Beat Your Wife and Kids | ANUSHAY'S POINT

UAE #2: Court in UAE says beating wife, child OK if no marks are left - CNN.com

Afghanistan: Shocking Law: Wife beating, honour killing to be legalised in Afghanistan « RAWA News

Bangladesh: Wife-Beating

== general articles

Wife-beating, Sharia, and the West: Asia Times Online :: Middle East News, Iraq, Iran current affairs

Wife-beating in the Quran: TheReligionofPeace - Islam: Can a Husband Beat His Wife?

In the Quran and Hadith: Wife Beating in Islam - WikiIslam

Women under Sharia: Women under Sharia Law – The Dilemma of “Wife Beating Protocol”

== World Maps

Where Muslims Live: Islam by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Where Women are physically insecure: File:Map3.1NEW Womens Physical Security 2011 compressed.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Of course you could claim that it's merely a coincidence that these two maps overlap so clearly, but the real question is how many people will be convinced of your argument?

==

TashaN, I understand that there is a lot of data here. And I acknowledge that you might find a few errors here and there. But remember, this is a complex, world-wide issue. The point of the OP was to draw useful, general conclusions. This is a common logical, scientific process. For example, most scientists around the world now agree that global warming is happening, and that human activity is playing a role. This is a useful, summary conclusion, even though it would be impossible to prove these claims with a single argument. Often we must draw conclusions using a preponderance of evidence.

Thoughts?

 

[cocokorina]

wife beating is ALLOWED if she's being disobedient. it's clearly mentioned in quran as well.
from surah an-nisa 4:34

Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.


some people take the translation as that it means to hit them 'lightly'. but that really makes no sense. why even be allowed to strike at all? and why must women be obedient? sounds kind of sexist, no?

 

[Sabour]

wife beating is ALLOWED if she's being disobedient. it's clearly mentioned in quran as well.
from surah an-nisa 4:34

Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.


some people take the translation as that it means to hit them 'lightly'. but that really makes no sense. why even be allowed to strike at all? and why must women be obedient? sounds kind of sexist, no?

Quraan also says that you have to establish prayer, but does it describe how one prays?

Similarly the verse you referred to isn't all about the subject.

The word looks not nice. But how the "striking" is taken ?

"When the above Quran verse authorizing the beating of a refractory wife was revealed, the Prophet is reported to have said: "I wanted one thing, but God has willed another thing – and what God has willed must be best (see Manar V, 74). With all this, he stipulated in his sermon on the occasion of the Farewell Pilgrimage, shortly before his death, that the beating should be resorted to only if the wife "has become guilty, in an obvious manner, of immoral conduct", and that it should be done "in such a way as not to cause pain (ghayr mubarrih)"; authentic Traditions to this effect are found in Muslim, Tirmidhi, Abu Daud, Nasai and Ibn Majah. On the basis of these Traditions, all the authorities stress that this beating, if resorted to at all, should be more or less symbolic – "with a toothbrush, or some such thing" (Tabari, quoting the views of scholars of the earliest times), or even "with a folded handkerchief" (Razi); and some of the greatest Muslim scholars (e.g. Ash-Shafii) are of the opinion that it is just barely permissible, and should preferable be avoided: and they justify this opinion by the prophet’s personal feelings with regard to this problem."[41]

 

[cocokorina]

Quraan also says that you have to establish prayer, but does it describe how one prays?

Similarly the verse you referred to isn't all about the subject.

The word looks not nice. But how the "striking" is taken ?

"When the above Quran verse authorizing the beating of a refractory wife was revealed, the Prophet is reported to have said: "I wanted one thing, but God has willed another thing – and what God has willed must be best (see Manar V, 74). With all this, he stipulated in his sermon on the occasion of the Farewell Pilgrimage, shortly before his death, that the beating should be resorted to only if the wife "has become guilty, in an obvious manner, of immoral conduct", and that it should be done "in such a way as not to cause pain (ghayr mubarrih)"; authentic Traditions to this effect are found in Muslim, Tirmidhi, Abu Daud, Nasai and Ibn Majah. On the basis of these Traditions, all the authorities stress that this beating, if resorted to at all, should be more or less symbolic – "with a toothbrush, or some such thing" (Tabari, quoting the views of scholars of the earliest times), or even "with a folded handkerchief" (Razi); and some of the greatest Muslim scholars (e.g. Ash-Shafii) are of the opinion that it is just barely permissible, and should preferable be avoided: and they justify this opinion by the prophet’s personal feelings with regard to this problem."[41]

anyone can take any meaning of the word 'strike'. it doesn't say anywhere in the quran that it has to be lightly. beating lightly with a toothbrush serves no purpose so it makes no sense to even have that ayat. and i find it very sexist that women are supposed to be disciplined by their husband.

 

[Sabour]

anyone can take any meaning of the word 'strike'. it doesn't say anywhere in the quran that it has to be lightly. beating lightly with a toothbrush serves no purpose so it makes no sense to even have that ayat. and i find it very sexist that women are supposed to be disciplined by their husband.

And any one can take the meaning of prayer the way he wants. Does that mean everyone preys the way he wants ? No

You said beating lightly with a toothbrush serves no purpose.

Well if the purpose is inflicting pain, than you are right. There is no purpose.

However the purpose is not inflicting pain.

If someone came to me and said to me "we are in danger", I may have different reactions.

I may thing he is exaggerating it.
I may think we are in little danger.
I may think there is really a huge danger.

But if someone came, and shook my body and told me we are in danger, than I would understand that it is big. So establishing physical contact delivers the message more effectively. And we are talking about serious problem in the verse. It is marriage and divorce.

Anyways let's look back at the verse:

Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.

So men are in charge of what? Of what Allah has given. It doesn't mean that you can do whatever you want like hitting her and make her do whatever you want because you will clearly see that women are honored in Islam.

Second they are also in charge financially which means they have to fully cover all house expenditures.

Let's also talk about the "strike" which is different form your understanding of the word.

Striking came out to be the third stage. The two previous stages are [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed.

Let us reflect on these verses by thinking of the situation.

The first stage was advising them. How much time would advising them take? A day or two? Ofcourse not. This is a serious problem, a first stage requires more time than that.

Stage 2 is [then if they persist], forsake them in bed. Similarly I think forsaking requires more time than a 1 week by logic.

Step 3 Is the striking [with a toothbrush].

However just because the striking is there, doesn't mean you have to strike. Read the verse which is after that. It says

4:35 And if you fear dissension between the two, send an arbitrator from his people and an arbitrator from her people. If they both desire reconciliation, Allah will cause it between them. Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Acquainted [with all things].

Therefore, you can go for the verse 4:35 to solve the problem. Just because it says strike them doesn't mean striking is for the purpose of inflicting pain. Neither does it mean you have to do it because you have to read the full context.