Does theism lead to immoral behaviour?

[muhammad_isa]

The Holocaust was religious violence...

..not really .. it was based on aryan supremacy.
..it might as well have been about black and white.

 

[shunyadragon]

What about "the inequalities in Israel" can't be traced to religion, though?

The problem of multiple peoples thinking that God has promised the land to each of them exclusively? That's religion.

Or if we look at it in terms of the movement to create a Jewish homeland to protect against a repeat of the Holocaust... well, the Holocaust was motivated largely by religion itself. It very closely followed the playbook laid out by Martin Luther in his religious writings.

The bold is questionable as far as Hitler's motives. Yes, he used Christian hatred of Jews to achieve his political goals of power and dominion over Europe. His attack on Jews was motivated attacking what he described as their financial power and influence in Europe in Mein Kampf. Hitler and his tribe was not motivated by religion at all. In reality the history of Europe conflicts was motivated by both religious and political tribalism.

 

[shunyadragon]

Those who claim to love God (or Jesus, in this case) who they can't see, but don't love their neighbour who they can see, are liars. (1 John 4:20)

Nonetheless hatred of the Jews can be motivated by direct citations from the Bible. Also the tribal Christian Manifest Destiny and Dominion over the Earth have also been a source of violence against those that 'do not believe' in history and even today.

This a problem with the scripture of all ancient tribal religions.

 

[F1fan]

You seem to be living in an alternative reality .. war is a part of human behaviour.

It is a dilemma. I like how Bronowski defined war. He called it "a highly organized form of theft." Theft is putin's motive. It was Hitler's motive. War can be defensive as well and force an indifferent people into conflict, like the Ukrainians. I heard a comment once that was very good, and it's "the first man to raise a fist in anger is the first man to run out of ideas." That is pretty good. War, violence, and anger are human behaviors, but the question is: are we capable of better? How about you?

Sometimes, it is necessary to fight wars .. but the victors have their tests, just like the losers..

Indeed. But it is better to talk first. When people believe they have absolute knowledge they won't be willing to talk. This is why secular government is better than a theocracy.

 

[muhammad_isa]

War can be defensive as well and force an indifferent people into conflict, like the Ukrainians.

..you digress .. anyway, is Putin's Russia what you call a secular govt?

 

[F1fan]

The bold is questionable as far as Hitler's motives. Yes, he used Christian hatred of Jews to achieve his political goals of power and dominion over Europe. His attack on Jews was motivated attacking what he described as their financial power and influence in Europe in Mein Kampf. Hitler and his tribe was not motivated by religion at all. In reality the history of Europe conflicts was motivated by both religious and political tribalism.

I agree. But it's arguable that anti-Semitism is religious in nature since it is a bias against a religious people. I'm still not sure why the Nazis would actually round up Jewish people and ship them to camps since this took manpower and resources. It would have been smarter to invite them in to the war effort. Hitler made a similar mistake by not inviting Ukrainians for the war against Russia. The Ukraine welcomed the Germans as liberators in 1941, but soon found their circumstances worse under the Germans, so helped beat them.

I wonder if the whole Arian superiority was taken too far as a unifying thing for Hitler and he just kept pushing that mantra, just as Trump kept pushing MAGA extremism and lost moderate republicans. That is the danger in dividing your people. DeSantis hasn't figured this out yet, and in some ways is dumber than Trump or Hitler.

 

[F1fan]

..you digress ..

Coming from the king of digression.

anyway, is Putin's Russia what you call a secular govt?

I see no indication that he is using religion for his policies. He moved Russia from a democracy to a dictatorship, and as we see through history that dictators see themselves as absolute, much like anyone's God.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I see no indication that he is using religion for his policies. He moved Russia from a democracy to a dictatorship, and as we see through history that dictators see themselves as absolute, much like anyone's God.

Right .. so it more about dictatorship v. democracy, rather than religion.

 

[SkepticThinker]

The irony - you call yourself a critical thinker. My stars, if you only were.

I'll take your utter and total lack of response to the content of my post to be your concession that you are not interested in logic, reason or critical thinking. Otherwise, you'd have addressed it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The bold is questionable as far as Hitler's motives. Yes, he used Christian hatred of Jews to achieve his political goals of power and dominion over Europe. His attack on Jews was motivated attacking what he described as their financial power and influence in Europe in Mein Kampf. Hitler and his tribe was not motivated by religion at all. In reality the history of Europe conflicts was motivated by both religious and political tribalism.

Please bother to read what I write before replying.

Again: Hitler's personal beliefs are irrelevant to whether religion factored into the Holocaust, because he used as his playbook a religious source ("On the Jews and Their Lies" by Martin Luther, specifically).

 

[SkepticThinker]

Ah, look at that, a cynic and conspiracy theorist. Such insightful and enlightening views.
...you atheists choose to be blind.

Do you have anything useful to contribute to the conversation at all?

 

[shunyadragon]

Please bother to read what I write before replying.

Again: Hitler's personal beliefs are irrelevant to whether religion factored into the Holocaust, because he used as his playbook a religious source ("On the Jews and Their Lies" by Martin Luther, specifically).

I read the whole thing. The facts are against you. Hitler's motivation were not religious. He did exploit the hatred of Jews by Christians to achieve his goals. Hitler was fundamentally irreligious.

Your premise here was 'Does theism lead to immoral behaviour?

Hitler's motivation nor personal beliefs was NOT Theism. There is reference in Hitler's writings nor speeches that he was motivated by Theistic beliefs nor that he believed in Theism. His motivation for hatred of the Jews and Communists was political

Why did Hitler hate the Jews?

Hitler used antisemitic ideas that had been around for a long time. Read more about Hitler’s hatred of Jews.

www.annefrank.org

During the First World War (1914-1918), Hitler was a soldier in the German army. At the end of the war he, and many other German soldiers like him, could not get over the defeat of the German Empire. The German army command spread the myth that the army had not lost the war on the battlefield, but because they had been betrayed. By a ‘stab in the back’, as it was called at the time. Hitler bought into the myth: Jews and communists had betrayed the country and brought a left-wing government to power that had wanted to throw in the towel.

. . . and as previous noted he was motivated by Aryan supremacy.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I read the whole thing.

Then it's a failure of comprehension, apparently.

The facts are against you. Hitler's motivation were not religious.

How many times do I have to tell you? The plan laid out by Martin Luther to persecute the Jews is religious regardless of Hitler's personal views.

He did exploit the hatred of Jews by Christians to achieve his goals. Hitler was fundamentally irreligious.

Your premise here was 'Does theism lead to immoral behaviour?

Hitler's motivation nor personal beliefs was NOT Theism. There is reference in Hitler's writings nor speeches that he was motivated by Theistic beliefs nor that he believed in Theism. His motivation for hatred of the Jews and Communists was political

Theism led Martin Luther to write "On the Jews and Their Lies." Without theism, this material would not have existed with a plan for Hitler to follow.

And in your own post, you allude to another way that theism was instrumental in the Holocaust: without widespread anti-semitism in Germany - fuelled by their Christian and very theistic religon - Hitler's message wouldn't have resonated. Without theism, Hitler would have been an ineffectual, angry crank without a following. Theism made the Holocaust possible.

 

[F1fan]

Right .. so it more about dictatorship v. democracy, rather than religion.

Theocracies are dictatorships, but the leaders use religious dogma and the assertion of an authority from God instead just brutal policing against protestors. Theocracies are more primitive and also more brutal and immoral in their punishments. In any event secular democracy offers more advantages and freedom, as you enjoy in the UK, and as you admit you avoid living in a Muslim theocracy.

 

[F1fan]

I read the whole thing. The facts are against you. Hitler's motivation were not religious. He did exploit the hatred of Jews by Christians to achieve his goals. Hitler was fundamentally irreligious.

Your premise here was 'Does theism lead to immoral behaviour?

Hitler's motivation nor personal beliefs was NOT Theism. There is reference in Hitler's writings nor speeches that he was motivated by Theistic beliefs nor that he believed in Theism. His motivation for hatred of the Jews and Communists was political

Anti-Jewish attitudes were quite prevalent in Europe, and even America, before the war, and I suspect Hitler adopted these views from his social experience growing up. He was raised Catholic, and Catholics were very anti-Semitic at that time. Hitler surely took this social attitude and applied it in political policies, so not a huge step. Many dictators take social attitudes and use them to exploit the public for support. And no wonder the public at large just stood by and watched attacks on Jews in their neighborhoods. So I think it is safe to say that Hitler went along with many in Europe who were Catholic or Lutheran (Christian) yet their beliefs in Jesus as savior did not help them consider that Jews had human rights. If the Christians of Europe had been MORE Christian, and accepted Jews as humans who deserved rights and dignity, there would not have been a rise to the Nazi party and their anti-Semitic policies. The Nazis rose to power by exploiting the citizens over the economics of Depression era Germany, and their anti-Semitic biases.

We look at the issue of wwhether religion influenced Hitler's attitudes and policies against Jews, but has anyone questioned why Christians didn't put a stop to the Holocaust?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Anti-Jewish attitudes were quite prevalent in Europe, and even America, before the war, and I suspect Hitler adopted these views from his social experience growing up. He was raised Catholic, and Catholics were very anti-Semitic at that time. Hitler surely took this social attitude and applied it in political policies, so not a huge step. Many dictators take social attitudes and use them to exploit the public for support. And no wonder the public at large just stood by and watched attacks on Jews in their neighborhoods. So I think it is safe to say that Hitler went along with many in Europe who were Catholic or Lutheran (Christian) yet their beliefs in Jesus as savior did not help them consider that Jews had human rights. If the Christians of Europe had been MORE Christian, and accepted Jews as humans who deserved rights and dignity, there would not have been a rise to the Nazi party and their anti-Semitic policies. The Nazis rose to power by exploiting the citizens over the economics of Depression era Germany, and their anti-Semitic biases.

We look at the issue of wwhether religion influenced Hitler's attitudes and policies against Jews, but has anyone questioned why Christians didn't put a stop to the Holocaust?

Yeah, read the history of the Danish Jews. They were all rounded up and eating as barbecue meat at great street parties. Just check the history.

 

[Copernicus]

People keep saying that, as if it were true..
As far as I understand, it was politically motivated.

Yes, but that doesn't mean that there was no religious motivation in the act. You keep wanting to downplay the role of religion in motivating such acts, but the reality is that religion has always mixed with politics. Theocracies exist. People have gone to war over religious differences. Religion has been used to motivate persecution. Secular government arose in Europe as a reaction to wars and strife over religious differences.

Bin Laden did not agree with his country's inviting US airbase into Saudi in the Kuwait war .. G-d was not talking to Bin Laden..
Pointing the finger at religion is superficial .. one has to look at the underlying reasons.
..such as the inequalities in Israel etc.

Yes, and religion was an underlying reason for his political movement. You cannot simply ignore the fact that bin Laden's politics was very much embedded in his view of religion. He clearly believed that his god was talking to him and inspiring his movement. He was welcomed and sheltered in Iraq by the theocratic Taliban regime as a fellow Muslim. You urge us to look at underlying reasons, but you blind yourself to one of the most obvious ones.

 

[Copernicus]

Yes ancient religions are tribal, but so are political cults, and political movements, such as Hitler, Stalin and Khmer Rouge ot Cambodia with violent death tolls that rival any violence committed in the name of religion. The point is the cause is the tribal nature of humanity, and the associated dominant motivation ot the sense of community and identity that drives individuals to bond wuth unquestioned loyalty regardless of the moral consequences both good and bad. This evolved as a social survival mechanism like that of herds, packs and flocks in animals.

It isn't just ancient religions that are tribal. Modern ones are no different in that respect. I'm not denying that politics is involved. It has always been involved in tensions between religious communities. BTW, I do prefer other words than the emotionally charged one of "tribe" and "tribal". Those can be pejorative labels, when we are really talking about political, ethnic, linguistic, and cultural communities. Feelings of loyalty to those communities can run deep.

One can look at the activity of Communist regimes that have persecuted religious groups in the name of atheist materialism and call it politics, but it was also very much religion-based persecution. One difference between Communists and the religious groups they persecuted was that the Communist Party in those nations was in competition with religion over who got to define the standard of moral behavior. Communism in the Soviet Union always had religious overtones, and the Soviet government usually did what it could to try to stamp out other forms of religious belief.

 

[shunyadragon]

Then it's a failure of comprehension, apparently.



How many times do I have to tell you? The plan laid out by Martin Luther to persecute the Jews is religious regardless of Hitler's personal views.

How many times do I have to repeat it we are discussing Hitler's motivation and views, NOT Martin Luther. Hitlers motivation was NOT Theistic it was political

Theism led Martin Luther to write "On the Jews and Their Lies." Without theism, this material would not have existed with a plan for Hitler to follow.

And in your own post, you allude to another way that theism was instrumental in the Holocaust: without widespread anti-semitism in Germany - fuelled by their Christian and very theistic religon - Hitler's message wouldn't have resonated. Without theism, Hitler would have been an ineffectual, angry crank without a following. Theism made the Holocaust possible.

As described with references Hitler's motivation was political, there fore both political aand religious factors resulted in the Holocaust. Without Hitler and the Nazi Party the Holocaust would not have taken place.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Theocracies are dictatorships..

I have never argued for theocracy.