Does Wisdom of Solomon reveal Reincarnation in Ancient Judaism

[Shermana]

From Chapter 8

As a child I was naturally gifted,
and a good soul fell to my lot;
or rather, being good, I entered an undefiled body.

What does it mean "being good, I entered an undefiled body"?

Is that not a reference to the idea that good souls get reborn into better lives? Why would he be good before he was born? What's an "undefiled" body in this case? Does this, as well as the reference that Jeremiah was known "before the womb", and Job's "and naked I return to the womb" indicate that Reincarnation may have been what the text had in mind in this case?

Otherwise, what does this passage mean?

 

[Pegg]

shermana what is the reference to this verse? Is it 'song of solomon' or 'ecclesiastes'?

 

[Gjallarhorn]

It's from the Catholic Bible: the Book of Wisdom.

 

[Pegg]

It's from the Catholic Bible: the Book of Wisdom.

ah, the apocryphal writings.

 

[Ascendedone]

From Chapter 8
What does it mean "being good, I entered an undefiled body"?

Is that not a reference to the idea that good souls get reborn into better lives? Why would he be good before he was born? What's an "undefiled" body in this case? Does this, as well as the reference that Jeremiah was known "before the womb", and Job's "and naked I return to the womb" indicate that Reincarnation may have been what the text had in mind in this case?

Otherwise, what does this passage mean?

The Torah does a good job of describing what is deemed defiled and by what ones becomes whole again. For example, the Torah speaks about Aaron's first two sons instantly killed for defiling the Tent of Meetings with offerings of alien incense. You can count leprosy, the wrong animal for burnt offering, offering burnt offerings at the wrong place, etc.

As far as Jeremiah "before the womb", I understood it to mean it was known he was a prophet before he was born and the reference of Job is either his piety or the poetic part of anger when he is struck with illness.

It would make sense that King David son, the messianic linage, would have never entered a defiled body. G-d showed favor to David as expressed through Ni'vim. He allowed the royal linage to continue to rule Judah even though most worshipped Ba'al. The passage is almost to show the purity of his actions.

Now if you seek the answer if reincarnation exists, it does. The problem is I can not prove it. This is how ascended masters and twin flames fulfill their rolls.

 

[Shermana]

I've believed in Reincarnation for years, I'm not asking if it exists, I already believe it exists. The issue is whether Wisdom of Solomon outright says it in the most plain of terms, which I say it does. "Being good, I entered an undefiled body". Why was he good? Did he behave better in the Spiritual kingdom than the rest of the souls? I don't buy that. The only way I can see that being reconciled is that he had earned his title of "being good" through life on this Earth.

We see elsewhere, from the Psalms and even Qoholeth, that "The dead do not Praise God". So what could the dead POSSIBLY be doing to warrant some kind of greater status above all other souls to attain those positions? The only answer I can see that remotely makes sense in line with what scripture says about the dead, is that the resting place of the dead is based on prior actions on Earth. They don't have the ability to earn greater placement while dead. Thus, the afterlife and the subsequent life must in fact be related solely to what has happened in a previous earthly existence.

If Jeremiah was "known" before the Womb, that means for whatever reason, he was chosen to be a prophet because of what he was known for. What did he do in the Spiritual kingdom that made him so elevated that he was deemed to be a prophet.

As for Job, I fail to see how it's in any way "poetic" to say "Naked I return to the womb", you can make ANYTHING to say poetic but I think its clear cut saying "Naked I came from the womb" (Not poetic) in the same regard. Why go from not-poetic to poetic using the same phrase? I don't see it. It's 100% literal in my view.

Now I'm glad we agree that Reincarnation does in fact exist, but I think those verses are very clear cut, and trying to read something "poetic" into them which isn't really there defeats a potentially decisive proof text we have on it. The only way to reconcile the fact that the Dead aren't able to repent or earn favor from God with the idea that some souls are "known before the womb" and are "good" before they enter an "undefiled body" is if they had achieved some level of glory while they were able to repent and earn favor from God.

 

[Tbone]

Does Wisdom of Solomon reveal Reincarnation in Ancient Judaism

No...

 

[outhouse]

From Chapter 8



What does it mean "being good, I entered an undefiled body"?

Is that not a reference to the idea that good souls get reborn into better lives? Why would he be good before he was born? What's an "undefiled" body in this case? Does this, as well as the reference that Jeremiah was known "before the womb", and Job's "and naked I return to the womb" indicate that Reincarnation may have been what the text had in mind in this case?

Otherwise, what does this passage mean?

He would be talking in third person as courting wisdom as a female deity figure, which almost has refference to Asherah

he would also be talking RICH in allegory and metaphorically as a deity picking a human body, as god was seen to have a human body.

so no real mystery to your questions, it wasnt written as solomans spirity being born at all

 

[outhouse]

it was written as poetic literature regarding wisdom, this is obvious allegory

 

[Shermana]

He would be talking in third person as courting wisdom as a female deity figure, which almost has refference to Asherah

he would also be talking RICH in allegory and metaphorically as a deity picking a human body, as god was seen to have a human body.

so no real mystery to your questions, it wasnt written as solomans spirity being born at all

That's an opinion but I think it was intended to be read plainly. You can read any kind of allegory and poetry you want into it and I don't buy the whole "everything's allegorical" approach, I think they intended to be clear and linear. With that said, it doesn't really address what the verse is actually referring to, since he's talking about himself there, not personified Wisdom , which is mentioned afterwards. So I don't see how exactly you're deriving this, since he's talking about himself BEFORE he talks of Wisdom speaking.

 

[outhouse]

That's an opinion but I think it was intended to be read plainly. You can read any kind of allegory and poetry you want into it and I don't buy the whole "everything's allegorical" approach, I think they intended to be clear and linear. With that said, it doesn't really address what the verse is actually referring to, since he's talking about himself there, not personified Wisdom , which is mentioned afterwards. So I don't see how exactly you're deriving this, since he's talking about himself BEFORE he talks of Wisdom speaking.

lets let readers decide, its obviously allegory and state it is. in context of "wisdom is gift of god"


this should have been done from the start instead of cherry picking this kind of literature


scripture

1Indeed, she spans the world from end to end mightily
and governs all things well.a
Wisdom, the Source of Blessings

2Her I loved and sought after from my youth;
I sought to take her for my bride*
and was enamored of her beauty.b
3She adds to nobility the splendor of companionship with God;
even the Ruler of all loved her.
4For she leads into the understanding of God,
and chooses his works.c
5If riches are desirable in life,
what is richer than Wisdom, who produces all things?d
6And if prudence is at work,e
who in the world is a better artisan than she?
7Or if one loves righteousness,
whose works are virtues,
She teaches moderation and prudence,
righteousness and fortitude,*
and nothing in life is more useful than these.
8Or again, if one yearns for wide experience,
she knows the things of old, and infers the things to come.
She understands the turns of phrases and the solutions of riddles;
signs and wonders she knows in advance
and the outcome of times and ages.f
Wisdom as Solomon’s Counselor and Comfort

9So I determined to take her to live with me,
knowing that she would be my counselor while all was well,
and my comfort in care and grief.
10Because of her I have glory among the multitudes,g
and esteem from the elders, though I am but a youth.
11I shall become keen in judgment,
and shall be a marvel before rulers.
12They will wait while I am silent and listen when I speak;
and when I shall speak the more,
they will put their hands upon their mouths.*
13Because of her I shall have immortality
and leave to those after me an everlasting memory.h
14I shall govern peoples, and nations will be my subjects—i
15tyrannical princes, hearing of me, will be afraid;
in the assembly I shall appear noble, and in war courageous.
16Entering my house, I shall take my repose beside her;
For association with her involves no bitterness
and living with her no grief,
but rather joy and gladness.j
Wisdom is a Gift of God

17Reflecting on these things,
and considering in my heart
That immortality lies in kinship with Wisdom,k
18great delight in love of her,
and unfailing riches in the works of her hands;
And that in associating with her there is prudence,
and fair renown in sharing her discourses,
I went about seeking to take her for my own.
19* Now, I was a well-favored child,
and I came by a noble nature;
20or rather, being noble, I attained an unblemished body.
21And knowing that I could not otherwise possess her unless God gave it—
and this, too, was prudence, to know whose gift she is—
I went to the LORD and besought him,l
and said with all my heart:

 

[Shermana]

Yes, thank you for quoting the whole thing, now everyone can see that he's clearly talking about himself.

and I came by a noble nature;
20or rather, being noble, I attained an unblemished body.
21And knowing that I could not otherwise possess her unless God gave it—

So he's not having Wisdom speaking in the First person, unless you think Wisdom could not otherwise possess "her", but who is the "her" if Wisdom is the "I"?

 

[crazyrussian]

From Chapter 8

What does it mean "being good, I entered an undefiled body"?

Is that not a reference to the idea that good souls get reborn into better lives? Why would he be good before he was born? What's an "undefiled" body in this case? Does this, as well as the reference that Jeremiah was known "before the womb", and Job's "and naked I return to the womb" indicate that Reincarnation may have been what the text had in mind in this case?

Otherwise, what does this passage mean?

Reincarnation is a Jewish concept. jesus taught Re-encarnation. There is only a fragment of the concept preserved in Roman Cannon NT Text when Jesus states that John the Baptist was the Re-encarnation of Elijah.

The G-12 text expands on the Re-encarnation concept quite a bit.

The Regeneration Of The Soul​

1. JESUS sat in the porch of the Temple, and some came to learn his doctrine, and one said unto him, Master, what teachest thou concerning life? 2. And he said unto them, Blessed are they who suffer many experiences, for they shall be made perfect through suffering: they shall be as the angels of God in Heaven and shall die no more, neither shall they be born any more, for death and birth have no more dominion over them. 3. They who have suffered and overcome shall be made Pillars in the Temple of my God, and they shall go out no more. Verily I say unto you, except ye be born again of water and of fire, ye cannot see the kingdom of God. 4. And a certain Rabbi (Nicodemus) came unto him by night for fear of the Jews, and said unto him. How can a man be born again when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born again ? 5. Jesus answered, Verily I say unto you except a man be born again of flesh and of spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and ye hear the sound thereof, but cannot tell whence it cometh or whither it goeth. 6. The light shineth from the East even unto the West; out of the darkness, the Sun ariseth and goeth down into darkness again; so is it with man, from the ages unto the ages. 7. When it cometh from the darkness, it is that he hath lived before, and when it goeth down again into darkness, it is that he may rest for a little, and thereafter again exist. 8. So through many changes must ye be made perfect, as it is written in the book of Job, I am a wanderer, changing place after place and house after house, until I come unto the City and Mansion which is eternal. 9. And Nicodemus said unto him, How can these things be? And Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a teacher in Israel, and understandeth not these things? Verily we speak that which we do know, and bear witness to that which we have seen, and ye receive not our witness. 10. If I have told you of earthly things and ye believe not, how shall ye believe if I tell you of Heavenly things? No man hath ascended into Heaven, but he that descended out ofHeaven, even the Son-Daughter of man which is in Heaven.​

 

[Sleeppy]

Another explanation-

His soul was in agreement with his body? The building process for our physical makeup is different than that of the soul's building process.

 

[Muffled]

From Chapter 8



What does it mean "being good, I entered an undefiled body"?

Is that not a reference to the idea that good souls get reborn into better lives? Why would he be good before he was born? What's an "undefiled" body in this case? Does this, as well as the reference that Jeremiah was known "before the womb", and Job's "and naked I return to the womb" indicate that Reincarnation may have been what the text had in mind in this case?

Otherwise, what does this passage mean?

Conceivably. However re-incarnation is not a plain teaching in the old testament.

 

[Shermana]

Conceivably. However re-incarnation is not a plain teaching in the old testament.

Sure it is. One person's idea of "plain teaching" may not be so plain to another. What Job says about returning to the Womb is most assuredly a reference to being born again, and CARM"s idea of it being a metaphor for the Earth is just plain silly, at least IMO.