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Does your *god* speak?

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend Nowhere Man,

Zen monasteries historically were self sufficient where the monks used to do farming, own cooking, cleaning chopping wood etc. which does not mean any patron cannot donate but am sure begging was just NO. NO, which historically even Gautama at that time undertook in a limited way.
CHANGE is permanent and that is evolution which even religion has to undertake.

Love & rgds
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend biomystic,

Thank you for your response.
Whatever is your stand, is perfect but still it STANDS out, it still stands and that standing is what goes against buddhas teaching.

Also, possibly you missed the point that TODAY'S ONE world both the sides are merging in another beautiful oneness.
Today monks are working and workers are have become meditative and that is exactly what ZEN is all about.

May be you do not see the downfall of the financial markets of US or the lack of growth of the *west* and the high growth rates of countries of the *east* not because they are different but because everything moves in a cycle. What was up i.e. civilization in the east went down to the industrialist ion of the west. Now the brain of the east [software development, scientists, doctors etc] are all working behind those industrialized nations.
Beyond all this is and beyond the globe and this universe is another oneness and within that everything moves in a cycle.

Kindly allow some silence to develop for the *thoughts* of each other to settle and then the reflection of the moon will be clear on the mind [lake].

Love & rgds
 

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
Words, words, words. The proof is still in the pudding and I don't care how much you defend Buddhist philosophy, it still only amounts to brain manipulation to impose a single brain state wherein the brain's sense of self center is deactivated. Seeking a single brain state as a highest goal is not very wise in my opinion. It takes a whole brain with many states of consciousness to deal effectively with the problems of life. If Buddhist nations were leading the world in social progress and human rights and ecology and everything else needed to better humanity's ability to live harmoniously on earth then I wouldn't have any complaints but that is patently not the case. There used to be a Western wisdom about the futility of "contemplating your navel" instead of DOING something, and that wisdom still applies. Our greatest scientific and cultural achievements have been done by people who have not tried to extinguish their egos through meditation. It takes an ego to create novelty whereas the egoless mindset doesn't care and is content with the natural order of things.
:facepalm:

you really have no clue....

never mind
 

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
If sleepy-eyed Buddhas sitting and looking downwards as if contemplating their navels with perfect calm is your idea of "enlightenment", then have at it, but it's not the Christian way to ego-reduction.
.

I suggest you study christian mysticism further

because frankly....you're so far off base....its reached the point of ridiculousness

:facepalm: do you actually know what christian monks and nuns do in their daily lives?

“full participation in divinity which is humankind’s true beatitude and the destiny of human life”

–Thomas Aquinas
+

Your thought is a tree rooted deep in the soil of tradition and whose branches grow in the power of continuity. My thought is a cloud moving in the space. It turns into drops which, as they fall, form a brook that sings its way into the sea. Then it rises as vapour into the sky. Your thought is a fortress that neither gale nor the lightning can shake. My thought is a tender leaf that sways in every direction and finds pleasure in its swaying. Your thought is an ancient dogma that cannot change you nor can you change it. My thought is new, and it tests me and I test it morn and eve.

You have your thought and I have mine.

Your thought allows you to believe in the unequal contest of the strong against the weak, and in the tricking of the simple by the subtle ones. My thought creates in me the desire to till the earth with my hoe, and harvest the crops with my sickle, and build my home with stones and mortar, and weave my raiment with woollen and linen threads. Your thought urges you to marry wealth and notability. Mine commends self-reliance. Your thought advocates fame and show. Mine counsels me and implores me to cast aside notoriety and treat it like a grain of sand cast upon the shore of eternity. Your thought instils in your heart arrogance and superiority. Mine plants within me love for peace and the desire for independence. Your thought begets dreams of palaces with furniture of sandalwood studded with jewels, and beds made of twisted silk threads. My thought speaks softly in my ears, “Be clean in body and spirit even if you have nowhere to lay your head.” Your thought makes you aspire to titles and offices. Mine exhorts me to humble service.

You have your thought and I have mine.

Your thought is social science, a religious and political dictionary. Mine is simple axiom. Your thought speaks of the beautiful woman, the ugly, the virtuous, the prostitute, the intelligent, and the stupid. Mine sees in every woman a mother, a sister, or a daughter of every man. The subjects of your thought are thieves, criminals, and assassins. Mine declares that thieves are the creatures of monopoly, criminals are the offspring of tyrants, and assassins are akin to the slain. Your thought describes laws, courts, judges, punishments. Mine explains that when man makes a law, he either violates it or obeys it. If there is a basic law, we are all one before it. He who disdains the mean is himself mean. He who vaunts his scorn of the sinful vaunts his disdain of all humanity. Your thought concerns the skilled, the artist, the intellectual, the philosopher, the priest. Mine speaks of the loving and the affectionate, the sincere, the honest, the forthright, the kindly, and the martyr. Your thought advocates Judaism, Brahmanism, Buddhism, Christianity, and Islam. In my thought there is only one universal religion, whose varied paths are but the fingers of the loving hand of the Supreme Being. In your thought there are the rich, the poor, and the beggared. My thought holds that there are no riches but life; that we are all beggars, and no benefactor exists save life herself.

You have your thought and I have mine.

According to your thought, the greatness of nations lies in their politics, their parties, their conferences, their alliances and treaties. But mine proclaims that the importance of nations lies in work – work in the field, work in the vineyards, work with the loom, work in the tannery, work in the quarry, work in the timberyard, work in the office and in the press. Your thought holds that the glory of the nations is in their heroes. It sings the praises of Rameses, Alexander, Caesar, Hannibal, and Napoleon. But mine claims that the real heroes are Confucius, Lao-Tse, Socrates, Plato, Abi Taleb, El Gazali, Jalal Ed-din-el Roumy, Copernicus, and Pasteur. Your thought sees power in armies, cannons, battleships, submarines, aeroplanes, and poison gas. But mine asserts that power lies in reason, resolution, and truth. No matter how long the tyrant endures, he will be the loser at the end. Your thought differentiates between pragmatist and idealist, between the part and the whole, between the mystic and materialist. Mine realizes that life is one and its weights, measures and tables do not coincide with your weights, measures and tables. He whom you suppose an idealist may be a practical man.

You have your thought and I have mine.

Your thought is interested in ruins and museums, mummies and petrified objects. But mine hovers in the ever-renewed haze and clouds. Your thought is enthroned on skulls. Since you take pride in it, you glorify it too. My thought wanders in the obscure and distant valleys. Your thought trumpets while you dance. Mine prefers the anguish of death to your music and dancing. Your thought is the thought of gossip and false pleasure. Mine is the thought of him who is lost in his own country, of the alien in his own nation, of the solitary among his kinfolk and friends.

You have your thought and I have mine.





–Kahlil Gibran
 

biomystic

Member
Friend Nowhere Man,

Zen monasteries historically were self sufficient where the monks used to do farming, own cooking, cleaning chopping wood etc. which does not mean any patron cannot donate but am sure begging was just NO. NO, which historically even Gautama at that time undertook in a limited way.
CHANGE is permanent and that is evolution which even religion has to undertake.

Love & rgds

As proof of Buddhism dulling the mind, I will point out to you that you don't seem to know that Zen Buddhists were corrupted by militarism and ethical irresponsibility. Zen monks may not have begged but they didn't object like you don't object when Zen samarai put themselves in service to warlords and blithely slew whoever the warlord pointed them at. Look up Zen militarism so time and see what I mean..
 

biomystic

Member
Friend biomystic,

Thank you for your response.
Whatever is your stand, is perfect but still it STANDS out, it still stands and that standing is what goes against buddhas teaching.

Also, possibly you missed the point that TODAY'S ONE world both the sides are merging in another beautiful oneness.
Today monks are working and workers are have become meditative and that is exactly what ZEN is all about.

May be you do not see the downfall of the financial markets of US or the lack of growth of the *west* and the high growth rates of countries of the *east* not because they are different but because everything moves in a cycle. What was up i.e. civilization in the east went down to the industrialist ion of the west. Now the brain of the east [software development, scientists, doctors etc] are all working behind those industrialized nations.
Beyond all this is and beyond the globe and this universe is another oneness and within that everything moves in a cycle.

Kindly allow some silence to develop for the *thoughts* of each other to settle and then the reflection of the moon will be clear on the mind [lake].

Love & rgds

Maybe you do not see population counts and the fact that the capitalist system will inevitably favor those capitalists with access to the largest populations. Hence both China and India when brought up to modern industrial speed will inevitably corner a large share of the worldwide market. In other words, it has zero to do with religious or philosophical beliefs and everything to do with population count.

"Also, possibly you missed the point that TODAY'S ONE world both the sides are merging in another beautiful oneness."

Yes, differing groups with differing social systems and ideologies are merging together but that process, like all biological processes, is governed by competition between competing ideologies and societies. Oneness or unification does not naturally occur. A struggle for dominant position always marks the involved parties no matter what they may say publicly to promote their causes. Take the Pope trying to cater to Jewish paranoia, something that will always be an issue because Catholicism's history and Christian theology that cannot recognize any non-Christian religious path to God as spiritually valid. This is why ecumenical efforts to smooth over differences between religious and ethnic groups are bound to fail until they recognize the biological necessity of human beings needing authority that has proven itself through trial by combat in the arenas of life.
 
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Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
As proof of Buddhism dulling the mind, I will point out to you that you don't seem to know that Zen Buddhists were corrupted by militarism and ethical irresponsibility. Zen monks may not have begged but they didn't object like you don't object when Zen samarai put themselves in service to warlords and blithely slew whoever the warlord pointed them at. Look up Zen militarism so time and see what I mean..

western religious folk are free of corruption throughout their history?

:sarcastic

pull the other one, it has bells on it
 

biomystic

Member
I suggest you study christian mysticism further

because frankly....you're so far off base....its reached the point of ridiculousness

:facepalm: do you actually know what christian monks and nuns do in their daily lives?

“full participation in divinity which is humankind’s true beatitude and the destiny of human life”

–Thomas Aquinas
+

Your thought is a tree rooted deep in the soil of tradition and whose branches grow in the power of continuity. My thought is a cloud moving in the space. It turns into drops which, as they fall, form a brook that sings its way into the sea. Then it rises as vapour into the sky. Your thought is a fortress that neither gale nor the lightning can shake. My thought is a tender leaf that sways in every direction and finds pleasure in its swaying. Your thought is an ancient dogma that cannot change you nor can you change it. My thought is new, and it tests me and I test it morn and eve.

You have your thought and I have mine.

Your thought allows you to believe in the unequal contest of the strong against the weak, and in the tricking of the simple by the subtle ones. My thought creates in me the desire to till the earth with my hoe, and harvest the crops with my sickle, and build my home with stones and mortar, and weave my raiment with woollen and linen threads. Your thought urges you to marry wealth and notability. Mine commends self-reliance. Your thought advocates fame and show. Mine counsels me and implores me to cast aside notoriety and treat it like a grain of sand cast upon the shore of eternity. Your thought instils in your heart arrogance and superiority. Mine plants within me love for peace and the desire for independence. Your thought begets dreams of palaces with furniture of sandalwood studded with jewels, and beds made of twisted silk threads. My thought speaks softly in my ears, “Be clean in body and spirit even if you have nowhere to lay your head.” Your thought makes you aspire to titles and offices. Mine exhorts me to humble service.

You have your thought and I have mine.

Your thought is social science, a religious and political dictionary. Mine is simple axiom. Your thought speaks of the beautiful woman, the ugly, the virtuous, the prostitute, the intelligent, and the stupid. Mine sees in every woman a mother, a sister, or a daughter of every man. The subjects of your thought are thieves, criminals, and assassins. Mine declares that thieves are the creatures of monopoly, criminals are the offspring of tyrants, and assassins are akin to the slain. Your thought describes laws, courts, judges, punishments. Mine explains that when man makes a law, he either violates it or obeys it. If there is a basic law, we are all one before it. He who disdains the mean is himself mean. He who vaunts his scorn of the sinful vaunts his disdain of all humanity. Your thought concerns the skilled, the artist, the intellectual, the philosopher, the priest. Mine speaks of the loving and the affectionate, the sincere, the honest, the forthright, the kindly, and the martyr. Your thought advocates Judaism, Brahmanism, Buddhism, Christianity, and Islam. In my thought there is only one universal religion, whose varied paths are but the fingers of the loving hand of the Supreme Being. In your thought there are the rich, the poor, and the beggared. My thought holds that there are no riches but life; that we are all beggars, and no benefactor exists save life herself.

You have your thought and I have mine.

According to your thought, the greatness of nations lies in their politics, their parties, their conferences, their alliances and treaties. But mine proclaims that the importance of nations lies in work – work in the field, work in the vineyards, work with the loom, work in the tannery, work in the quarry, work in the timberyard, work in the office and in the press. Your thought holds that the glory of the nations is in their heroes. It sings the praises of Rameses, Alexander, Caesar, Hannibal, and Napoleon. But mine claims that the real heroes are Confucius, Lao-Tse, Socrates, Plato, Abi Taleb, El Gazali, Jalal Ed-din-el Roumy, Copernicus, and Pasteur. Your thought sees power in armies, cannons, battleships, submarines, aeroplanes, and poison gas. But mine asserts that power lies in reason, resolution, and truth. No matter how long the tyrant endures, he will be the loser at the end. Your thought differentiates between pragmatist and idealist, between the part and the whole, between the mystic and materialist. Mine realizes that life is one and its weights, measures and tables do not coincide with your weights, measures and tables. He whom you suppose an idealist may be a practical man.

You have your thought and I have mine.

Your thought is interested in ruins and museums, mummies and petrified objects. But mine hovers in the ever-renewed haze and clouds. Your thought is enthroned on skulls. Since you take pride in it, you glorify it too. My thought wanders in the obscure and distant valleys. Your thought trumpets while you dance. Mine prefers the anguish of death to your music and dancing. Your thought is the thought of gossip and false pleasure. Mine is the thought of him who is lost in his own country, of the alien in his own nation, of the solitary among his kinfolk and friends.

You have your thought and I have mine.





–Kahlil Gibran

Nice cut-and-paste arguments against the strawman you've created of me. But I'm more solidly built and it will take something more than quotes of others not yourself to prove me wrong.

"But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or else how can one enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house."
Mt. 12: 29

"Jesus said, 'The kingdom of the Father is like a certain man who wanted to kill a powerful man. In his own house he drew his sword and stuck it into the wall in order to find out whether his hand could carry through. Then he slew the powerful man."

I took Buddha's advice and when I met him on the road I killed him.
 

Zadok

Zadok
Most people have experienced the good G-d speaking to them with thoughts and ideas in their "minds" and "hearts" by encouragement to do good for others. Likewise most have experienced the evil g-d speaking temptations to them with ideas in their “minds” and “hearts encouraging them to seek what their desire for self – including such things for self as being born again and eternal salvation for self.

Zadok
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
As proof of Buddhism dulling the mind, I will point out to you that you don't seem to know that Zen Buddhists were corrupted by militarism and ethical irresponsibility. Zen monks may not have begged but they didn't object like you don't object when Zen samarai put themselves in service to warlords and blithely slew whoever the warlord pointed them at. Look up Zen militarism so time and see what I mean..

Zenzero is only partly correct in regards to Zen begging. There is a practice called Takuhatsu where Zen Buddhist monks will go out with begging bowls for alms and food and yes it is a monastic practice. You can go to Toyko (and elsewhere) today and find Soto monks (as well as some other traditions) still making their rounds with their bowl.
However you will never see monks begging at schools, shrines, temples, churches, government facilities, or at hospitals.

A monk in Toyko making rounds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zw7DjJ-x6-E

As far as Militaristic action by Zen monks go it actually is only partly true here. Zen is not militaristic as far as the practice goes, but rather has been implemented into Bushido.
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend NowhereMan,

Thank you for that information and knowledge on Takuhastu.
Wiki:
Takuhatsu (托鉢) is a traditional form of alms, common to Buddhist monks in Japan. In the practice of takuhatsu, monks travel to various businesses and residences in order to exchange chanting of sutras in Sino-Japanese (generating merit) for donations of food and money. Monks never beg at temples, shrines, churches, schools, government offices or hospitals.
Monks generally wear traditional takuhatsu clothes reminiscent of medieval Japan and wear the names of their monasteries on their satchels to confirm their identities.
The system that is used by Zen monks who are in training, to beg for their food. This is generally done in groups of ten to fifteen. The group goes through the street single-file, chanting "Ho" (meaning Dharma), and sympathizers come down and fill their alms bowls. This is the monks offering of the Dharma and their lives of guardians of the Dharma to the people. According to Zen tradition, the givers should be grateful

This is not exactly begging but an exchange. Exchange of spreading of dharma with the offering of food for dharma vehicle to continue besides it arouses a sense of gratitude amongst the givers.
Yes a beautiful phenomenon. Man living in eden picking up fruits which the tree drops.
Each like teeth in a set of gear fitting together to move the dharma.

Love & rgds
 
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Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Friend NowhereMan,

Thank you for that information and knowledge on Takuhastu.
Wiki:


This is not exactly begging but an exchange. Exchange of spreading of dharma with the offering of food for dharma vehicle to continue besides it arouses a sense of gratitude amongst the givers.
Yes a beautiful phenomenon. Man living in eden picking up fruits which the tree drops.
Each like teeth in a set of gear fitting together to move the dharma.


Love & rgds

Nicely expressed good friend Zenzero.

_/\_ -NM-
 

biomystic

Member
Zenzero is only partly correct in regards to Zen begging. There is a practice called Takuhatsu where Zen Buddhist monks will go out with begging bowls for alms and food and yes it is a monastic practice. You can go to Toyko (and elsewhere) today and find Soto monks (as well as some other traditions) still making their rounds with their bowl.
However you will never see monks begging at schools, shrines, temples, churches, government facilities, or at hospitals.

A monk in Toyko making rounds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zw7DjJ-x6-E

As far as Militaristic action by Zen monks go it actually is only partly true here. Zen is not militaristic as far as the practice goes, but rather has been implemented into Bushido.

Then why did Zen practitioners feel the need to apologize for their militaristic roles?
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend biomystic,

Then why did Zen practitioners feel the need to apologize for their militaristic roles?

Even if they did what is wrong in that? That in no way diminishes religiousness.

To personal understanding Zen is all about being *aware*. One can do anything with awareness as finally one is simply *consciousness* or *nothingness*.

Love & rgds
 

biomystic

Member
Friend biomystic,



Even if they did what is wrong in that? That in no way diminishes religiousness.

To personal understanding Zen is all about being *aware*. One can do anything with awareness as finally one is simply *consciousness* or *nothingness*.

Love & rgds

So morality isn't in your Zen Buddhist equation? Again, you don't see the point I make that accepting a philosophy aimed at attaining a single brain state through meditation dulls the mind, keeps it from looking objectively at the reality of what it's doing.
 

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
So morality isn't in your Zen Buddhist equation? Again, you don't see the point I make that accepting a philosophy aimed at attaining a single brain state through meditation dulls the mind, keeps it from looking objectively at the reality of what it's doing.


do you know what theosis is?

when you say "single brain state"

you are really grossly oversimplyfying things...
 
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Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
I took Buddha's advice and when I met him on the road I killed him.

Obviously you didnt

because that "dulling of the mind" as you so innacuratly label it...

is part and parcel of Christianity....

It is what EVERY christian monk and nun and priest! does....
In fact pretty much every saint also....

:rolleyes:

do you even know what it means to kill buddha on the road??

I really doubt it...
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
friend biomystic,

So morality isn't in your Zen Buddhist equation? Again, you don't see the point I make that accepting a philosophy aimed at attaining a single brain state through meditation dulls the mind, keeps it from looking objectively at the reality of what it's doing.

No mind is Zen mind so if your mind is stuck up with something called *morality* you have to watch your own mind as the mind is yours.
Again, if your brain has dulled by meditation then too blame your technique.

Originally Posted by biomystic

I took Buddha's advice and when I met him on the road I killed him.

If so, then you did the right thing as you have reached the right understanding.
Am sure you have reached *nirvana*.
Buddha has blessed you!

Love & rgds
 

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
Am sure you have reached *nirvana*.
Buddha has blessed you!

Love & rgds

:p yer so funny sometimes....

“Kabbalah teaches us you never know the narrative you are in while you are in it. But you must have confidence in the goodness of the universe while you actively pursue the path that is right for you.”

- David Ariel
 

biomystic

Member
Obviously you didnt

because that "dulling of the mind" as you so innacuratly label it...

is part and parcel of Christianity....

It is what EVERY christian monk and nun and priest! does....
In fact pretty much every saint also....

:rolleyes:

do you even know what it means to kill buddha on the road??

I really doubt it...

Yep. I really did do in Buddha. Revealed his trick and from my time onward all intellectuals who are aware of the way human brains work will know that what Buddhists are actually doing to their brains despite all the WORDS of hoary tradition is eliminate electrical functioning of that part of the human brain that controls our sense of self. This is done in order to achieve a bliss conscious state of mind and that, my Buddhists friends, is exactly the same thing as using drugs to change consciousness. If you are satisfied with seeking the Buddhist way to getting high then ignore me. But Buddha's philosophy is now deader than than a dodo for those who want to face reality with a fully functioning brain.
 
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