Doesn't that sound like word of God?

[Ben Masada]

Nice try at a redirect, but that wasn't anything like what I said.

You claimed that Jews fabricated the Quran, and that Mohammed then ordered these Jews killed. You then asked what the big deal was.

+++Ben: - I did not claim. I said that I read in a book which I am sorry not to be able
to quote. It has been quite some time. I don't even remember the title of the book.

The big deal is that you are making quite serious accusations against an entire religion without referencing any source, and without evidence.

+++Ben: - I don't even wish to apologize vis-a-vis how Muslims have defamed our
religion and even denied that there was ever a Holocaust. If the Holocaust was a hoax, as they love to say, I am ready to proclaim to the whole world without fear that Muhammad was also a hoax and that the Jews wrote the Quran. And mind you, I am just finghting back with their own weapons.

The size of what I think the deal to be is irrelevant here. What is relevant is whether you will continue to make accusations that you cannot support, and support those you have made already, or not.

+++Ben: - To any accusation from their part, I am ready to send another one back.

My comments come in between the paragraphs above.

Ben

 

[Right_Path]

I did not claim. I said that I read in a book which I am sorry not to be able
to quote. It has been quite some time. I don't even remember the title of the book.

'I don't even remember the title of the book'...then how are you expecting anyone to listen to what you are saying.

and even if you remembered the name of the book, the notion that the Quran was written by Jews is just...hilarious!...did you even read the Quran?

I don't even wish to apologize vis-a-vis how Muslims have defamed our
religion and even denied that there was ever a Holocaust. If the Holocaust was a hoax, as they love to say, I am ready to proclaim to the whole world without fear that Muhammad was also a hoax and that the Jews wrote the Quran. And mind you, I am just finghting back with their own weapons.

1-READ THE QURAN...See how the Quran speaks about Moses.
Muslims have NOT defamed your religion, and if the acts of some Muslims did not impress you, this does not mean Islam is to blame.

2-Muslims have NOT denied the holocaust.
However, if this happened, it does not give you the right to say the Mohamed and the Quran were hoax.

why? because you would be answering back for personal reasons...you made an accusation built on another one...this is not religion pal.

We are talking about a book that HAS its impact on billions of people...a perfect book...calling for evrything that is good and prohibiting anything bad (not a book you don't remember its name).

3- The holocaust has nothing to do with Judaism IMO...there is no point relating it to prophet Mohamed and Islam.

Because simply Judaism is about the Torah, Moses...etc..
The holocaust took place thousands of years after that...people who deny the holocaust, (even if they are wrong), have NOT provoked your religion.

 

[Ben Masada]

'I don't even remember the title of the book'...then how are you expecting anyone to listen to what you are saying.

+++Ben: - If you bothered to pick up my post to answer is proof that you have listened to what I said.

and even if you remembered the name of the book, the notion that the Quran was written by Jews is just...hilarious!...did you even read the Quran?

+++Ben: - Yes, the whole thing from cover to cover. Have you? For them we are infidels.

1-READ THE QURAN...See how the Quran speaks about Moses.
Muslims have NOT defamed your religion, and if the acts of some Muslims did not impress you, this does not mean Islam is to blame.

+++Ben: - Yes, the fact that the Jews didn't bother to defend Jesus from the Romans, does not meant that we killed Jesus. Assad from Syria on the TV, speaking for Islam expressed the lack of understanding why America has this thing for the Jews instead
of for the Muslims when the Jews were the ones who killed Jesus. They too like to generalize without logic.

2-Muslims have NOT denied the holocaust.
However, if this happened, it does not give you the right to say the Mohamed and the Quran were hoax.

+++Ben: - I live with them. I work with them. I discuss religion with them. I have come very close to physically fight with them. They are extremely arrogant when it comes to their religion. They are worse than Christians when one is stiff-necked to understand what they are trying to convey about Islam. I don't think you are aware of this.

why? because you would be answering back for personal reasons...you made an accusation built on another one...this is not religion pal.

+++Ben: - Here, I agree with you. Perhaps it's a weakness of mine to get personal but in kind, as they become personal with me.

We are talking about a book that HAS its impact on billions of people...a perfect book...calling for evrything that is good and prohibiting anything bad (not a book you don't remember its name).

+++Ben: - As I can see, most probably, you haven't read the Quran. That it has influenced billions of people, no doubt about it. But that it calls for everything that's good, perhaps, as far as Muslims are concerned yes. I am Jewish.

3- The holocaust has nothing to do with Judaism IMO...there is no point relating it to prophet Mohamed and Islam.

+++Ben: - The Holocaust has everything to do with Judaism. If it hadn't we would not have lost so many Jews. It was exactly for the existence of Judaism that the Holocaust happened.

Because simply Judaism is about the Torah, Moses...etc..
The holocaust took place thousands of years after that...people who deny the holocaust, (even if they are wrong), have NOT provoked your religion.

+++Ben: - It means you have no knowledge at all about Judaism and of being Jewish.

My comments come in between your paragraphs above.

Ben

 

[Halcyon]

23-12 ''Verily We created man from a product of wet earth''

23-13 ''Then We placed him as (a drop of) sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed''

23-14 ''Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood;
then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump;
then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh;
then we developed out of it another creature.
So blessed be Allah, the best to create''

You (or someone) has added the word foetus in there, without it the verse can be read in its correct and original way, one that suggests God added a clot of blood to clay and formed man like a golem - fully grown.

Even in the third Sura of the Qur'an it is said that there will be those that twist the words of the Book, that you might suppose it is part of the Word of God, yet it is not.
Adding words to support your interpretation is blasphemy.

 

[Right_Path]

You (or someone) has added the word foetus in there, without it the verse can be read in its correct and original way, one that suggests God added a clot of blood to clay and formed man like a golem - fully grown.

Even in the third Sura of the Qur'an it is said that there will be those that twist the words of the Book, that you might suppose it is part of the Word of God, yet it is not.
Adding words to support your interpretation is blasphemy.

Adding words!!!

Nothing is added to change the meaning...in translation, a word could be added, edited only to help make it easier for non-Arabs.

The original Arabic version of Quran remains untouchable.

The thing that matters here is what the verse explains in its original meaning...in Arabic.

 

[herushura]

You (or someone) has added the word foetus in there, without it the verse can be read in its correct and original way, one that suggests God added a clot of blood to clay and formed man like a golem - fully grown.

Even in the third Sura of the Qur'an it is said that there will be those that twist the words of the Book, that you might suppose it is part of the Word of God, yet it is not.
Adding words to support your interpretation is blasphemy.

Sun*
Light - Earth - Adam
Allah - Clay - Man
or
Light-Plant-Animal

 

[Halcyon]

Adding words!!!

Nothing is added to change the meaning...in translation, a word could be added, edited only to help make it easier for non-Arabs.

The original Arabic version of Quran remains untouchable.

The thing that matters here is what the verse explains in its original meaning...in Arabic.

The word "foetus" was added in brackets before the word "lump" which alters the way the passage is read, and it was done so to conform to a certain interpretation, as was predicted in the Qur'an itself -

And there is a sect of them twist their tongues with the Book,
that you suppose it part of the Book, yet it is not part of the Book:
and they say, 'It is from God,' yet it is not from God.

 

[.lava]

[12] Man We did create from a quintessence (of clay); [13] Then We placed him as (a drop of) sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed; [14] Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then We made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then We developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the Best to create!

hi i quoted this from an on-line translation. it sometimes takes a few English words to give the exact meaning of one Arabic word. that is very common. it is rich language. however i do not have information about word that's used in this verse. but it is obvious it was not from Right Path.


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[Right_Path]

If you bothered to pick up my post to answer is proof that you have listened to what I said.

The listen that I meant= Consider, believe in.

Yes, the whole thing from cover to cover. Have you? For them we are infidels.

The infidels were those Jews in Medina, who knew Mohamed was God's messenger, yet rejected him cause he is Arab.

The followers of Moses are NOT infidels.

Yes, the fact that the Jews didn't bother to defend Jesus from the Romans, does not meant that we killed Jesus. Assad from Syria on the TV, speaking for Islam expressed the lack of understanding why America has this thing for the Jews instead
of for the Muslims when the Jews were the ones who killed Jesus. They too like to generalize without logic.

Even though this Assad does not represent Islam, he has got a point, yet the point is irrelevant to our debate here.

I live with them. I work with them. I discuss religion with them. I have come very close to physically fight with them. They are extremely arrogant when it comes to their religion. They are worse than Christians when one is stiff-necked to understand what they are trying to convey about Islam. I don't think you are aware of this.

If the Muslims you deal with are like what you described, then that is their problem...not Islam's problem, thats what i was trying to tell you about generelization.

The Quran urges Muslims to argue in peace with Christians and Jews unless they become unfair.

Quran: 29-46

''And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)."

See also how prophet Mohamed PBUH used to deal with Jews.

As I can see, most probably, you haven't read the Quran. That it has influenced billions of people, no doubt about it. But that it calls for everything that's good, perhaps, as far as Muslims are concerned yes. I am Jewish.

I didn't exactly get your point here...Do you have any doubts that the Quran calls for good?

The Holocaust has everything to do with Judaism. If it hadn't we would not have lost so many Jews. It was exactly for the existence of Judaism that the Holocaust happened..

How could you say that?...we all know that the Holocaust was masterminded by Hitler, whose intentions were far from being religious...thats why there were other victims than Jews...there were Homosexuals, handicapped, gypsies...etc.

It may have had an effect on Jews in terms of quantity...and ofcourse it was a horrible thing, so it had a psychological effect too...but the religion remains the same.

Did the Holocaust prevent you from practicing Judaism until this very moment?

It means you have no knowledge at all about Judaism and of being Jewish.

Enlighten me

 

[Right_Path]

The word "foetus" was added in brackets before the word "lump" which alters the way the passage is read, and it was done so to conform to a certain interpretation, as was predicted in the Qur'an itself .

Well, then you think I added it.

Compared Translations of the meaning of the Quran - Sura 23

See Yusuf Ali translation

and btw... notice the hunderds of words between brackets in other translations.

back to topic...what matters is the original meaning...the Arabic one...the interpretation cannot change the meaning of a verse.

And there is a sect of them twist their tongues with the Book,
that you suppose it part of the Book, yet it is not part of the Book:
and they say, 'It is from God,' yet it is not from God.

Do not use a verse from the Quran unless you are fully aware of what you are saying.

 

[Halcyon]

Well, then you think I added it.

Compared Translations of the meaning of the Quran - Sura 23

See Yusuf Ali translation

and btw... notice the hunderds of words between brackets in other translations.

back to topic...what matters is the original meaning...the Arabic one...the interpretation cannot change the meaning of a verse.

Do not use a verse from the Quran unless you are fully aware of what you are saying.

No, I realise that you did not add it, but the translation you chose has had words added to it. Notice in your own link the literal translation, and then how many of the other translations work just fine without the adding of the word "foetus" next to the word "lump".

And you are wrong, the interpretation IS the meaning, that's what an interpretation is. That some versions chose to add words such as foetus in an attempt to lead the readers' interpretaion along a similar path to the editor's own is telling.

 

[Ben Masada]

The listen that I meant= Consider, believe in.
The infidels were those Jews in Medina, who knew Mohamed was God's messenger, yet rejected him cause he is Arab.

+++Ben: - I doubt very much that the Jews of Medina or any Jew would put his faith
on the claim that Muhammad was God's messenger. A messenger from God, as far as a Jew is concerned, must be tested in the light of Isaiah 8:20. To the "Law and the Prophets" if such a messenger won't speak accordingly, it's because there is no light in him. And Muhammad could never have passed that test.

The followers of Moses are NOT infidels.

+++Ben: - Perhaps now you imply that we are not followers of Moses?

Even though this Assad does not represent Islam, he has got a point, yet the point is irrelevant to our debate here.

+++Ben: - Aha! So, Assad has got a point. It means you believe that the Jews killed
Jesus. It only shows how much ignorance of NT History you have, and how Antisemitism still exists in both Islam and Christianity.

If the Muslims you deal with are like what you described, then that is their problem...not Islam's problem, thats what i was trying to tell you about generelization.

+++Ben: - If Islam was the way you picture, we would not have lost so many Jews to Islam. Why would Muhammad kill the Jews of Medina, because they refused to recognize him as God's messenger? Nonsense! There is much more to it in there that
you either don't know or don't want to talk about.

The Quran urges Muslims to argue in peace with Christians and Jews unless they become unfair.
Quran: 29-46

''And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)."

See also how prophet Mohamed PBUH used to deal with Jews.

I didn't exactly get your point here...Do you have any doubts that the Quran calls for good?

+++Ben: - For you Muslims, no doubt about it. Not to the Jews. Muslims even consider a guarantee of Heavens to kill a Jew. Be careful not to contradic me because I live in Israel and my ears are tired to hear this from Muslims.

How could you say that?...we all know that the Holocaust was masterminded by Hitler, whose intentions were far from being religious...thats why there were other victims than Jews...there were Homosexuals, handicapped, gypsies...etc.

+++Ben: - The others had their reasons to be target by Hitler. The only reason for the Jews to be murdered was the only fact that they were Jews. And mind you, Hitler had the blessing of Islam for the Holocaust. The Mufty of Jerusalem was in Germany for that very purpose: To bless the Nazis in their enterprise. I watched
the documentary, before you reply this by saying that I am lying.

It may have had an effect on Jews in terms of quantity...and ofcourse it was a horrible thing, so it had a psychological effect too...but the religion remains the same.

Did the Holocaust prevent you from practicing Judaism until this very moment?

+++Ben: - Why would the Holocaust have that effect? You don't suppose I would become a Muslim or Christian afterwards, do you?

Enlighten me

+++Ben: - There are many books with that purpose if you are interested.

My comments follow yours in between the paragraphs.

Ben

 

[.lava]

My comments follow yours in between the paragraphs.

Ben

Dear Ben, it is difficult to read those. at least chose red color when you type, if it is OK with you too.


.

 

[Ben Masada]

Dear Ben, it is difficult to read those. at least chose red color when you type, if it is OK with you too.


.

I don't know yet how to write in color. Do you think you can tell me from there?

Ben :bow:

 

[.lava]

I don't know yet how to write in color. Do you think you can tell me from there?

Ben :bow:

i'd try :cover:. you click to reply and page opens. there you'd see boxes with letters and signs. you chose the color you want from the box between 'sizes' and smiling face. i hope i managed to explain


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[Ben Masada]

i'd try :cover:. you click to reply and page opens. there you'd see boxes with letters and signs. you chose the color you want from the box between 'sizes' and smiling face. i hope i managed to explain


.

Yes, you did manage to explain, you are great, thanks. Now, I'll make it easy on you
to read my posts.

Thanks again

Ben

 

[Don Penguinoini]

.lava, i believe i posted an answer to one of your questions?

 

[.lava]

My point is that is is stupid to say that the word of Islam is true because you had some scientific verses. Science does not mean the religion is right.

If there a scientifically stupid religion which promoted peace and a very scientific religion that promoted destruction, which would you rather believe. What does science do? Nothing. It is a fake tag that religions grab to make it look like they have a hold in your life.

thanks for reminding me of this reply

you know i disagree. if 1400 years old writings said about a truth that's only discovered by modern science in last century, that means a lot. it is significant. not just one, there are many more. but of course, what we call 'Miracles of Qur'an' would not teach peace or humanity. they exist as proofs.

true religion could not be scientifically stupid. i personally want the truth, i want the real deal. when i make my choice, i do not pay attention to people. i can not know which person represent religion perfectly. but it is written, so i read. it does not bring destruction into my life, on the contrary, it did bring me peace and knowledge at the same time. science, peace, knowledge, happiness..these could not be apart. they all together make one religion. i know that there are bigots and they represent ignorance. they are not the religion. those individuals and groups have nothing to do with religion. they commit their deeds of savagery under the guise of Islam.

now i have a question for you too. you probably saw some Muslims killing 'infidels', saying the name of Allah, with guns in their hands..etc. picture them in your mind and tell me what would be left behind if you took name of Allah and all of those Islamic symbols out of that picture.



.

 

[Right_Path]

No, I realise that you did not add it, but the translation you chose has had words added to it. Notice in your own link the literal translation, and then how many of the other translations work just fine without the adding of the word "foetus" next to the word "lump".

What do you mean I did not add it!!...I didn't make any alteration to the verse, just copy/paste. Can't you see the link!

You have to know that the word (foetus) was added by translator Yusuf Ali between brackets to provide more explanation for non-Arab readers.

However, I'll make it simple for you.

-You can chose the translation you like...the meaning remains the same.

And you are wrong, the interpretation IS the meaning, that's what an interpretation is. That some versions chose to add words such as foetus in an attempt to lead the readers' interpretaion along a similar path to the editor's own is telling.

A word could be interpreted by tens of other words...for example the Arabic word (Yogadel) could be interpreted argue, dispute, debate....etc.

The words can be used in different translations, but the ORIGINAL meaning remains unchanged for Arabs.....understand!

 

[.lava]

dear Right Path, your intention might be good but you can't really expect every single person to know nature of Arabic. it is very different from English. i don't mean to offend you but i think i should remind you this fact


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