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Don't be an atheist

phoenixlauer

New Member
To be an atheist by dictionary definition means no beleif in god. It does not mean to be "against god". Further more that quote makes me wonder if you know what a true atheist's beleifs are really based on. You should do some homework.
 

Aasimar

Atheist
I would be interested to hear from an atheist on this thread, what make you not believe in God?

Because Non-belief is the default position for anything in the absence of evidence. Any claim that something exists that can alter natural law, or impose it's supernatural will upon the natural world, and I need a whole lot of proof. Fortunately, there is virtually no proof at all. So non-belief isn't very difficult. It's not like I see a mountain of proof for God and decided I didn't like it, so I ignore it. The proof just isn't there.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If only I knew what Planck Era was I would respond to that one, but I'm assuming 25 yrs might not cut it, haha.
Regardless though, I didn't need to be around to understand that there was a definite beginning. It cannot simply be stated that the universe "formed" from nothing. Someone used "matter" in another post, but how was matter formed?

This reasoning, while eminently intuitive, is completely passe -- and patently incorrect. This is 19th century reasoning. Since the advent of Relativity and Quantum physics in the early 20th C, commonsense and "believing your eyes" has been completely discarded. The Universe and "Reality" is entirely different from what we perceive.
Time, mass, motion and energy are all completely different than what we perceive in our everyday reality. Our four senses feed us an abstract representation of Reality. We perceive only three dimensions of a multidimensional Reality.
Were you absent from middle and high school science classes?
"Beginning," "Causality" &c are social ideas. Letting the illusion presented by your senses impact your opinions on physics or philosophy is simply absurd.
 

kmkemp

Active Member
Because Non-belief is the default position for anything in the absence of evidence. Any claim that something exists that can alter natural law, or impose it's supernatural will upon the natural world, and I need a whole lot of proof. Fortunately, there is virtually no proof at all. So non-belief isn't very difficult. It's not like I see a mountain of proof for God and decided I didn't like it, so I ignore it. The proof just isn't there.

* millions/billions of changed lives
* the Earth around us
* the universe
* fulfilled prophecy
* the apparent disappearance of a certain man's body
* the simultaneous belief of the disciples after that man's death
* just the fact that Christianity survived its infancy is amazing enough, no? how many other faiths started with their members being tortured and killed for their beliefs?
* facts hidden in the bible that were way ahead of its time speak to its divine origin

It is a hard thing to get your head around - faith. After all, it's very circular, no? I know I'm right because I felt the spirit, but I only felt the spirit because I believed with faith. Still, there is a basis for acceptance in the first place. We can go through all of the evidence and make counterpoints until we are blue in the face, but there is no arguing with a changed life. This is the fundamental truth that Christians know and hope to share with you.
 

s2a

Heretic and part-time (skinny) Santa impersonator
Don't be atheists, people. Atheism is a trap. To be an atheist, to be "against god," implies that there is a god for you to be against. You are indeed acknowledging the very concept that you abhor. Atheism can only be understood within the umbrella of theism. You are buying into theism in your effort to disavow it. "I don't like tomato soup" acknowledges the existence of tomato soup.

What to do instead? Do nothing. Don't BE anything but yourself. If you're going to join a bunch of so-called "atheists," you might as well just go to church.

*sigh*

Good ole' FredX...

...shows up to toss a stink bomb in the toilet, then runs away to see who will be outraged, or just bother to clean up the mess.

I submit that anyone that instigates a thread, and doesn't reappear within three days (or in this particular case, 12+ days) to specifically rebut any lent commentary to the OP, is no better than a troll (whether intentionally trolling or not).

PDFTT.

Idiots and children...

*sigh*
 

Aasimar

Atheist
It is a hard thing to get your head around - faith.

It's actually quite easy, I had faith my entire childhood. All you have to do is assume you have the answers. It's really quite simple. If I believe Jesus is talking to me, he is. If want to see a miracle, I will. 100 people die in a plane crash, 99 die, 1 survives. It's a miracle! I'm sure the other 99 dead people would disagree, but hey, God works in mysterious ways right?
We can go through all of the evidence and make counterpoints until we are blue in the face, but there is no arguing with a changed life.

You are first invited to join us willingly. You will now be assimilated. Resistance is futile.

You do of course realize that Buddhist, Bah'ai's , Muslims, Taoists, Hindus, Jainists, Wiccans, Necromancers, Religious Satanists, Followers of Zeus, Followers of Poseidon, etc. etc. etc. all felt the spirit of their god because they had faith. Kinda odd don't ya think? Everyone has their own god, and they all claim to feel his presence. And he changed all their lives. It's amazing what disenfranchising yourself with true responsibility will do for your mindset. There's evil in this world, but that's ok, because I'm saved. Let's go through the list.


* millions/billions of changed lives
Same with Taoism, Buddhism, Islam, Shinto. All changed lives on a massive scale. And not just the lives of the believers either. Those nearby also had their lives changed. So that proves that religion changes lives. Doesn't make it true, truly believing there is a voice in your head telling you to rape little children is life changing as well, doesn't mean there really is a disembodied voice telling you what to do.
* the Earth around us
That's like saying a plastic pitcher of water has evidence that a gopher created the pitcher because the pitcher is there. The only evidence that the earth around us provides is that it exists.
* the universe
See above.
* fulfilled prophecy
Yeah, add that to the list of fulfilled prophecies of the ages, such as Nostradamus, Islam, Magic 8 ball, etc. Astrology makes accurate predictions about peoples lives as well. Funny how all you need to do is interpret it in a way that suits your desired outcome.
* the apparent disappearance of a certain man's body
4 guys who give different stories and all believe it would happen claimed that a body was put in a cave with a big rock, then the body was gone. Dissapearance of a body in no ways entails the assumption it was ressurected. If we assumed every mysterious dissapearance of a body meant it had been resurrected, we would have a whole lot of people to account for. And it's not as if Jesus' ressurection story is unique. Apollonius of Tyana, Sabbatai Sevi, Rabbi Judah, Kabir to name a few.
* the simultaneous belief of the disciples after that man's death
Does that mean that the simultaneous belief of all the members of the Haley's comet cult that claimed the telescope they used was faulty because it didn't detect the ship behind the comet they had claimed was coming is proof that the belief was legitimate? People who were told by Jesus he would be resurrected believed that he was, how is that shocking? And they all wrote about it decades later.
* just the fact that Christianity survived its infancy is amazing enough, no? how many other faiths started with their members being tortured and killed for their beliefs?
Though not technically a faith or belief, how about atheists? Hmm, people who don't believe in god were tortured and killed by Christians.
* facts hidden in the bible that were way ahead of its time speak to its divine origin
Such as?
 

rojse

RF Addict
Originally Posted by kmkemp
* facts hidden in the bible that were way ahead of its time speak to its divine origin


You are not talking about the Bible Code, are you?

Sigh.

The Bible code is created, or discovered, when the letters of the original Bible are put into a grid, and you look for sequences in the spacing of the letters or if there are words, like a find-a-word, apparently hidden in there by God. Some are words, some are phrases or even sentences.

I found this to be quite a silly idea as people have found hidden words in books like "Moby Dick", and so forth. I am sure that if we used any book that refuted God that was the same size as the Bible, we would find hidden words and phrases in there too.
 

kmkemp

Active Member
It's actually quite easy, I had faith my entire childhood. All you have to do is assume you have the answers. It's really quite simple. If I believe Jesus is talking to me, he is. If want to see a miracle, I will. 100 people die in a plane crash, 99 die, 1 survives. It's a miracle! I'm sure the other 99 dead people would disagree, but hey, God works in mysterious ways right?

That is not faith. You are relating faith to the naivety of a child. The faith we mean when we talk about it is one of research and based firmly in reality.

You are first invited to join us willingly. You will now be assimilated. Resistance is futile.

You do of course realize that Buddhist, Bah'ai's , Muslims, Taoists, Hindus, Jainists, Wiccans, Necromancers, Religious Satanists, Followers of Zeus, Followers of Poseidon, etc. etc. etc. all felt the spirit of their god because they had faith. Kinda odd don't ya think? Everyone has their own god, and they all claim to feel his presence. And he changed all their lives. It's amazing what disenfranchising yourself with true responsibility will do for your mindset. There's evil in this world, but that's ok, because I'm saved. Let's go through the list.

I do not doubt that there is something about the human mind that has the ability to believe in the absence of evidence. I also do not doubt that there is a certain longing to do so. Still, this speaks more for a creator than anything else, no?

Same with Taoism, Buddhism, Islam, Shinto. All changed lives on a massive scale. And not just the lives of the believers either. Those nearby also had their lives changed. So that proves that religion changes lives. Doesn't make it true, truly believing there is a voice in your head telling you to rape little children is life changing as well, doesn't mean there really is a disembodied voice telling you what to do.

Here you seem to be likening religion with psychological problems. The reverse of this has been proven scientifically. There is nothing wrong with these people other than your unfounded criticism of faith.

That's like saying a plastic pitcher of water has evidence that a gopher created the pitcher because the pitcher is there. The only evidence that the earth around us provides is that it exists.

No, it is common sense. You do not look at anything around you that has a function as if it just happened to appear. You naturally assume that it was created. It is plain common sense to assume the same is true for the world, but yet you didn't know this from an early age and you have, over the course of all those years, decided it was not the case. Still, it makes perfect sense.

“An intelligent being, is the active principle of all things. One must have renounced all common sense to doubt it, and it is a waste of time to try to prove such self evident truth.” - Jean Jacques Rousseau

Yeah, add that to the list of fulfilled prophecies of the ages, such as Nostradamus, Islam, Magic 8 ball, etc. Astrology makes accurate predictions about peoples lives as well. Funny how all you need to do is interpret it in a way that suits your desired outcome.

Lol, no one that actually has knowledge prophecy would compare Nostradamus to Biblical prophecy. Nostradamus was among the most successful secular "predictors" of all time and his "prophecy" pales in comparison with that of the Biblical prophets. You might have been told that Biblical prophecy is vague, and some of it is, but there are many, many prophecies that are very specific. Let's start with that Jesus Christ prophecy.

4 guys who give different stories and all believe it would happen claimed that a body was put in a cave with a big rock, then the body was gone.

This shows a lack of knowledge. These men did not believe that Christ would rise from the dead. They were utterly defeated in that three day period.

Dissapearance of a body in no ways entails the assumption it was ressurected. If we assumed every mysterious dissapearance of a body meant it had been resurrected, we would have a whole lot of people to account for. And it's not as if Jesus' ressurection story is unique. Apollonius of Tyana, Sabbatai Sevi, Rabbi Judah, Kabir to name a few.

Hmmm, who stole the body then? It is documented (pretty sure Josephus attested to this) that he was crucified and buried. There was no one denying that his body was missing during the time. Do you not think that the Jews and Romans would have said, "You fools, his body is right here" if it actually was? There wouldn't have been any Christians at all. So, let's look at the parties and what their motives and ability to steal Christ's body was. First, we have the Romans who knew that Christ had predicted his resurrection. Their motives were to quell the uprising so they had every incentive to protect the grave. If they had failed in their duty to guard the body, their penalty would be death so no chance of a bribe here. The disciples did not believe he was the Son of God until he rose and met them three days later. Still, even if this were not the case, there was still the matter of a huge rock and a rock in the path. Still, even if all of this was overcome, there is still the matter of them proclaiming what they would have known to be a lie while alienating their friends and family and going onto a horrible death. These were sane, upstanding men who had no incentive to do this other than the hope of Christ resurrected. Then, finally, we have the Jews. I don't think I need to tell you why the Jews wouldn't want to steal the body.

Does that mean that the simultaneous belief of all the members of the Haley's comet cult that claimed the telescope they used was faulty because it didn't detect the ship behind the comet they had claimed was coming is proof that the belief was legitimate? People who were told by Jesus he would be resurrected believed that he was, how is that shocking? And they all wrote about it decades later.

Again, psychological deficiencies shouldn't be linked to men that had no history of such things. As far as it being written decades later, the gospel accounts were a marvel for that time in history. Most accounts were written significantly longer after they happened with such a high emphasis on oral tradition. It is an amazing fact in and of itself that the gospel accounts were written so soon after Christ's death.

Though not technically a faith or belief, how about atheists? Hmm, people who don't believe in god were tortured and killed by Christians.

Atheists have always existed. They did not come into being in such an environment as Christianity did. Again, this is such a tired argument... Christians did not persecute anyone. Manipulating opportunists under the veil of Christianity killed people (I am not supposing that amongst them were no Christians, however).


[SIZE=-1][FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]Originally I had a long list of quotes, but my post exceeded the maximum size. Instead, I'll just post this link from which I pulled most of them.[/FONT][/SIZE][FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]

Source: http://www.inplainsite.org/html/scientific_facts_in_the_bible.html

Warning: some of these are vague (as you would expect), but others are pretty straightforward and speak to the possibility of divine origin that even the vaguer ones might have been as the author supposes.

[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]
[/SIZE][/FONT]
 

Papersock

Lucid Dreamer
kmkemp said:
[SIZE=-1][FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]Source: http://www.inplainsite.org/html/scientific_facts_in_the_bible.html[/FONT][/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1][FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]Warning: some of these are vague (as you would expect), but others are pretty straightforward and speak to the possibility of divine origin that even the vaguer ones might have been as the author supposes.[/FONT][/SIZE]

Many of those (perhaps the vague ones) seem like a stretch.
I think a thread dedicated to that site might be worthwhile.
 

Aasimar

Atheist
Christians did not persecute anyone. Manipulating opportunists under the veil of Christianity killed people (I am not supposing that amongst them were no Christians,

I suppose all the witches that have been burned to death would disagree with you, but we'll never know. Christians did a good job expunging them from society as well. But our current superstition is based on reason, really. Anal sex is evil, really.

Again, psychological deficiencies shouldn't be linked to men that had no history of such things. As far as it being written decades later, the gospel accounts were a marvel for that time in history. Most accounts were written significantly longer after they happened with such a high emphasis on oral tradition. It is an amazing fact in and of itself that the gospel accounts were written so soon after Christ's death.

It's amazing you believe people wouldn't lie to gain power. Because that never happens. And people's eyewitness accounts are always infallible. Seriously, what is more probable to borrow from Richard Dawkins. "The whole of Natural law was suspended to allow for a virgin birth, or a Jewish minx lied?" Hmm.

Do you not think that the Jews and Romans would have said, "You fools, his body is right here" if it actually was?

You know, I saw Penn and Teller once shoot each other in the face with pistols and catch each others bullets in their teeth. The bullets were intricately marked and Penn's bullet ended up in Teller's mouth and vice versa. Now as to how they did it, I really don't know. But does that amount to magic? Not at all, it amount to my lack of ability to imagine the technique involved. Now I saw it happen, and I don't believe it to be true, imagine if I read an account written by a few crazy zealots 2000 years ago about it who claimed to have seen it with their own eyes. Now I'm really skeptical. The God answer solves absolutely nothing. God made the earth and the heavens and the universe and blah blah blah. Really, what made him then. Oh, he's eternal. I know this because he told me so. Well not me, this guy a long time ago, he told him that. Oh yeah and they lived for hundreds of years, and uh, made these quasi accurate predictions, and some prophecies that failed such as Nebuchadnezzar's destruction of Tyre, but we ignore those ones. And we don't follow the rules in that book that we don't like anymore, like stoning kids to death, and sending your daughter out to be raped rather than offending a male guest. Those are uncivilized, but the rest is correct. Until we change our minds.

Nobody would ever suspect that the unwavering human tendency to see intent in benign things is at play here. (Seeing burglars when there are shadows, ghosts in waving curtains, faces in clouds, etc.)

Here you seem to be likening religion with psychological problems. The reverse of this has been proven scientifically. There is nothing wrong with these people other than your unfounded criticism of faith.

Please show me some scientific proof that religion is not similar to psychological problems. And i would also like to see how the reverse of this has been proven scientifically.
 

kmkemp

Active Member
I suppose all the witches that have been burned to death would disagree with you, but we'll never know. Christians did a good job expunging them from society as well. But our current superstition is based on reason, really. Anal sex is evil, really.

Again, the Bible is clear that we are not the ones to judge or murder. I am not saying that a Christian doesn't do these things. No one is perfect. Holding Christianity accountable for a few members that went outside of the Biblical is not fair, however. That has been discussed again and again in various threads.

It's amazing you believe people wouldn't lie to gain power. Because that never happens. And people's eyewitness accounts are always infallible.

They didn't gain power. They all died horrible deaths. Furthermore, Christianity was persecuted, not given power. Multiple eye witness accounts in harmony while clearly not copying each other would hold up very well in a court of law, but I guess your criteria is higher?

Seriously, what is more probable to borrow from Richard Dawkins. "The whole of Natural law was suspended to allow for a virgin birth, or a Jewish minx lied?" Hmm.

Ah, yes, another fallacy. You are simplifying matters by isolating one event in a string of events to make it looks like that is the whole of an argument when in fact no one would actually believe some random person was born from a virgin. With the rest of the credibility of the Bible taken into account, however, we have more reason to believe a detail like this (that didn't have to be there since it doesn't really affect the resurrection other than fulfillment of prophecy) than not.

You know, I saw Penn and Teller once shoot each other in the face with pistols and catch each others bullets in their teeth. The bullets were intricately marked and Penn's bullet ended up in Teller's mouth and vice versa. Now as to how they did it, I really don't know. But does that amount to magic? Not at all, it amount to my lack of ability to imagine the technique involved. Now I saw it happen, and I don't believe it to be true, imagine if I read an account written by a few crazy zealots 2000 years ago about it who claimed to have seen it with their own eyes. Now I'm really skeptical. The God answer solves absolutely nothing. God made the earth and the heavens and the universe and blah blah blah. Really, what made him then. Oh, he's eternal. I know this because he told me so. Well not me, this guy a long time ago, he told him that. Oh yeah and they lived for hundreds of years, and uh, made these quasi accurate predictions, and some prophecies that failed such as Nebuchadnezzar's destruction of Tyre, but we ignore those ones. And we don't follow the rules in that book that we don't like anymore, like stoning kids to death, and sending your daughter out to be raped rather than offending a male guest. Those are uncivilized, but the rest is correct. Until we change our minds.

What you are saying is not scriptural. We only believe that the things you mentioned are no longer applicable because the Bible tells us it is so. Then there is that little detail that historians do... oh yea, interpreting within context. Silly guys.

Nobody would ever suspect that the unwavering human tendency to see intent in benign things is at play here. (Seeing burglars when there are shadows, ghosts in waving curtains, faces in clouds, etc.)

People do see what they want to see. That is hardly conclusive evidence, however. Let's say that you have never seen a deer. You don't believe in deer. Well, your lack of belief has nothing to do with the immutable fact that deer exist. If I see a deer and tell you about it and you write off my "delusion" as me seeing what I want to see, you have made a false assumption based on your own ignorance of the existence of deer.

Please show me some scientific proof that religion is not similar to psychological problems. And i would also like to see how the reverse of this has been proven scientifically.

Again, you are twisting my words. I am wagering that the disciples weren't all insane. Admittedly, scientific evidence was probably too strong of a term. What I really mean is that we have very good historical evidence (after all, they are not around to perform tests on them) that the disciples were not crazy. First of all, we have every reason to believe that these were upstanding and responsible citizens. There are absolutely no accounts of these people ever showing any affects of psychological symptoms prior to their discipleship. Curious that that many people could simultaneously become crazy, no?
 

Aasimar

Atheist
Again, the Bible is clear that we are not the ones to judge or murder. I am not saying that a Christian doesn't do these things. No one is perfect. Holding Christianity accountable for a few members that went outside of the Biblical is not fair, however. That has been discussed again and again in various threads.

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

"Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you," says the LORD. "Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction". (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

The bible is quite clear on the Christian duty to judge and execute those who disagree.

Right, do not judge or murder. Odd that they seem to be directly talking about priests who judge people. Priests are human.



They didn't gain power. They all died horrible deaths. Furthermore, Christianity was persecuted, not given power. Multiple eye witness accounts in harmony while clearly not copying each other would hold up very well in a court of law, but I guess your criteria is higher?

They didn't gain power? Are you serious? The Roman Catholic church has it's own country for crying out loud. Christianity dominated Europe for centuries, during which time moral and technological progress slowed to a crawl.

As far as Multiple eye witness accounts in harmony, let's talk Resurrection. This is copy and pasted, because I'm kinda short on time write now, sorry about that.

Matthew began his narrative of the events of that day by telling us that Mary Magdalene and "the other Mary" went to the sepulcher "as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week" (28:1). The time factor that he identified contrasts sharply with the testimony of Mark, Luke, and John, who said, respectively, that the time was "very early on the first day of the week... when the sun was risen" (16:1) or "on the first day of the week, at early dawn" (24:1) or "on the first day of the week... while it was yet dark" (20:1). By stretching imagination, perhaps we could reconcile the testimony of Matthew and Luke. If it was "beginning to dawn toward the first day of the week," we could maybe grant that this could be called "early dawn," but how could the sun already be risen if it was only beginning to dawn? And if the sun had already risen, as Mark claimed, how could it have been "yet dark," as John said? For that matter, how could it have been "yet dark" if the morning had reached any stage that could be correctly described as "dawn"? I grew up on a farm, so I can remember getting up many times as it was "beginning to dawn" or while it was still "early dawn," but it certainly wasn't "yet dark." By looking outside, I could see clearly enough to recognize objects. Certainly by the time the sun had risen, it was never "yet dark" outside. So how could it possibly be that John was right in the time factor that he specified but the other three were also right in their time factors? This is a chronological discrepancy that bibliolaters have never satisfactorily explained.



Ah, yes, another fallacy. You are simplifying matters by isolating one event in a string of events to make it looks like that is the whole of an argument when in fact no one would actually believe some random person was born from a virgin. With the rest of the credibility of the Bible taken into account, however, we have more reason to believe a detail like this (that didn't have to be there since it doesn't really affect the resurrection other than fulfillment of prophecy) than not.

Simplifying matters? The bible claims that the whole of the natural order was suspended so that these events could take place. That a physically impossible event occurred. Belief that the whole of the natural order was suspended requires a bit more than biased evidence from a few people in an ancient text that has been altered thousands of times and written by multiple authors from different time periods who had little or no understanding of physical law and were educated in the bronze age. The credibility of the Bible, are you kidding me? What credibility?



What you are saying is not scriptural. We only believe that the things you mentioned are no longer applicable because the Bible tells us it is so. Then there is that little detail that historians do... oh yea, interpreting within context. Silly guys.

So how is interpreting the prophecy that Nebuchadnezzar would conquer Tyre, and the fact that he never did conquer Tyre. Also that it would never be rebuilt, and it has been rebuilt. How is that taking it out of context? So what is your stance on Old Testament law? Does it apply anymore or no? Is it he word of God and his will or no? Was it ever his will or no?


People do see what they want to see. That is hardly conclusive evidence, however. Let's say that you have never seen a deer. You don't believe in deer. Well, your lack of belief has nothing to do with the immutable fact that deer exist. If I see a deer and tell you about it and you write off my "delusion" as me seeing what I want to see, you have made a false assumption based on your own ignorance of the existence of deer.

Okay, I don't believe in deer. You do. You claim to have seen a deer. I never have. Let's establish some criterion to determine whether or not I should believe you.





Again, you are twisting my words. I am wagering that the disciples weren't all insane. Admittedly, scientific evidence was probably too strong of a term. What I really mean is that we have very good historical evidence (after all, they are not around to perform tests on them) that the disciples were not crazy. First of all, we have every reason to believe that these were upstanding and responsible citizens. There are absolutely no accounts of these people ever showing any affects of psychological symptoms prior to their discipleship. Curious that that many people could simultaneously become crazy, no?

Are you a Mormon? I'm going to assume that you are not, and that you think the doctrine of the Book of Mormon is false. If this is untrue let me know. Because the Mormon's have very good historical evidence that their founders were not crazy. Their founders don't have documentation that they were showing the effects of psychological problems prior to following the teachings of the book of Mormon. Yet there are tens of thousands of Mormons. Strange that so many people could begin following a doctrine simultaneously no? Yet you don't believe in their doctrine, why not?

This post is kind of incomplete, there was a great deal more I want to write here but I'm very tired, so I'll either edit or make a new post later. Wanted to have some response out there. Thanks
 
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kmkemp

Active Member
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

"Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you," says the LORD. "Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction". (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

The bible is quite clear on the Christian duty to judge and execute those who disagree.

Right, do not judge or murder. Odd that they seem to be directly talking about priests who judge people. Priests are human.

These are all common objections from atheists who have been easily rebuked. Grabbing their propaganda doesn't help your case.

They didn't gain power? Are you serious? The Roman Catholic church has it's own country for crying out loud. Christianity dominated Europe for centuries, during which time moral and technological progress slowed to a crawl.

You are completely twisting this around. The Christians that died for their faith (the group we're talking about) didn't gain anything (of this world) for their faith. They were persecuted, disowned, tortured, and murdered. Your reference to the Roman Catholic church that happened centuries later is laughable at best.

As far as Multiple eye witness accounts in harmony, let's talk Resurrection. This is copy and pasted, because I'm kinda short on time write now, sorry about that.

Matthew began his narrative of the events of that day by telling us that Mary Magdalene and "the other Mary" went to the sepulcher "as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week" (28:1). The time factor that he identified contrasts sharply with the testimony of Mark, Luke, and John, who said, respectively, that the time was "very early on the first day of the week... when the sun was risen" (16:1) or "on the first day of the week, at early dawn" (24:1) or "on the first day of the week... while it was yet dark" (20:1). By stretching imagination, perhaps we could reconcile the testimony of Matthew and Luke. If it was "beginning to dawn toward the first day of the week," we could maybe grant that this could be called "early dawn," but how could the sun already be risen if it was only beginning to dawn? And if the sun had already risen, as Mark claimed, how could it have been "yet dark," as John said? For that matter, how could it have been "yet dark" if the morning had reached any stage that could be correctly described as "dawn"? I grew up on a farm, so I can remember getting up many times as it was "beginning to dawn" or while it was still "early dawn," but it certainly wasn't "yet dark." By looking outside, I could see clearly enough to recognize objects. Certainly by the time the sun had risen, it was never "yet dark" outside. So how could it possibly be that John was right in the time factor that he specified but the other three were also right in their time factors? This is a chronological discrepancy that bibliolaters have never satisfactorily explained.

More material quoted from some website. Even if I were to concede all of this as out and out fabrications (I'm not), the slight differences only add credibility in the end. By the discrepancies, we can be sure that one of the authors wasn't looking at another's work or that there was not some great collaboration in putting the four together. A chronological difference has nothing to do with the message of the biographies, of course. As you can find out rather easily, the norm of the time period was for the biographies to actually focus on what was important... a characteristic that we lost somewhere along the way apparently.

Simplifying matters? The bible claims that the whole of the natural order was suspended so that these events could take place. That a physically impossible event occurred. Belief that the whole of the natural order was suspended requires a bit more than biased evidence from a few people in an ancient text that has been altered thousands of times and written by multiple authors from different time periods who had little or no understanding of physical law and were educated in the bronze age. The credibility of the Bible, are you kidding me? What credibility?

The Bible is a shining beacon of historical accuracy, prophecy, and even scientifically acclaimed.

So how is interpreting the prophecy that Nebuchadnezzar would conquer Tyre, and the fact that he never did conquer Tyre. Also that it would never be rebuilt, and it has been rebuilt. How is that taking it out of context? So what is your stance on Old Testament law? Does it apply anymore or no? Is it he word of God and his will or no? Was it ever his will or no?

Old Testament law has since been fulfilled in Christ. Many changes have been made. Furthermore, many of the laws given were only given in the context of the Jewish people of the BCE era. There used to be a law in Minnesota that said you had to have feet on your bathtub. Does that mean that we shouldn't have bathtubs without feet?

Okay, I don't believe in deer. You do. You claim to have seen a deer. I never have. Let's establish some criterion to determine whether or not I should believe you.

I am a credible person who is known for his truthfulness. If I tell you that I saw a deer, the logical thing is to believe me, not deny it just because you don't have the same experience. The problem is that you have this presupposition that deer don't exist so my seeing one is impossible. You think that is a logical assumption, but really it is only logical if your presupposition that deer don't exist is indeed true.

Are you a Mormon? I'm going to assume that you are not, and that you think the doctrine of the Book of Mormon is false. If this is untrue let me know. Because the Mormon's have very good historical evidence that their founders were not crazy. Their founders don't have documentation that they were showing the effects of psychological problems prior to following the teachings of the book of Mormon.

This isn't a comparable analogy. It would only be comparable if

A) Mormons were certain they would be tortured and killed for professing their faith and
B) the Mormons consisted of a sizeable group of people who didn't believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet and then all of the sudden changed their mind for no apparent reason independent of each other
 

Aasimar

Atheist
More material quoted from some website. Even if I were to concede all of this as out and out fabrications (I'm not), the slight differences only add credibility in the end. By the discrepancies, we can be sure that one of the authors wasn't looking at another's work or that there was not some great collaboration in putting the four together. A chronological difference has nothing to do with the message of the biographies, of course. As you can find out rather easily, the norm of the time period was for the biographies to actually focus on what was important... a characteristic that we lost somewhere along the way apparently.
Sorry don't have much time, only commenting on one point. It has everything to do with the credibility of the people writing the accounts. There is a huge difference between before dawn (Dark) and after dawn (Light.) You honestly don't think that witnesses that claimed a man was murdered in the dark, the other that it was light, would hold up in a court? It's not like it's a difficult thing to remember, it's not as if they're disagreeing on the color of the bark of a tree. This happened in the dark. This happened in the Light. This is not a minor discrepancy. And yeah, I looked up the passages they referred to, they were accurate, though I copied them from a website (As I said when I posted.)

There used to be a law in Minnesota that said you had to have feet on your bathtub. Does that mean that we shouldn't have bathtubs without feet?
No, but that law doesn't claim to be divine in nature, so it's okay to just up and change them. Go go ever shifting morality.

The Bible is a shining beacon of historical accuracy, prophecy, and even scientifically acclaimed.
That's quite a claim. Now for some proof...

I am a credible person who is known for his truthfulness. If I tell you that I saw a deer, the logical thing is to believe me, not deny it just because you don't have the same experience. The problem is that you have this presupposition that deer don't exist so my seeing one is impossible. You think that is a logical assumption, but really it is only logical if your presupposition that deer don't exist is indeed true.
I saw a dragon yesterday. I am a credible person, who is known for his truthfulness. Do you accept the fact that I have seen a dragon? Why or why not?

And let's get back to brass tacks while we are at it. Believing in deer is in no way tantamount to believing that the Supreme Creator of the Universe intervened and completely altered the rules of the biological world in order for these events to occur, and has never done it since.


Gotta get some sleep. More to follow.
 
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deedee2

New Member
most geniuses are atheists. They have the intelligence to know religion is just a bunch of fairy tales as a way of explaining the unknown so people wont freak out. If there wasn't any intelligent life on earth would there be a god? It takes a developed mind to even think about there being a god so therefore a man made it up.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Atheists like bacon too.
Who can argue with that?

BTW, greetings, miner of really old threads!
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
most geniuses are atheists. They have the intelligence to know religion is just a bunch of fairy tales as a way of explaining the unknown so people wont freak out. If there wasn't any intelligent life on earth would there be a god? It takes a developed mind to even think about there being a god so therefore a man made it up.

deedee, why on earth are you digging up threads that no one has posted in for over 5 years? Do you believe these members are even still here to respond to you? :confused:
 

s2a

Heretic and part-time (skinny) Santa impersonator
Don't be atheists, people. Atheism is a trap. To be an atheist, to be "against god," implies that there is a god for you to be against. You are indeed acknowledging the very concept that you abhor. Atheism can only be understood within the umbrella of theism. You are buying into theism in your effort to disavow it. "I don't like tomato soup" acknowledges the existence of tomato soup.

What to do instead? Do nothing. Don't BE anything but yourself. If you're going to join a bunch of so-called "atheists," you might as well just go to church.

*rolls eyes*
 

s2a

Heretic and part-time (skinny) Santa impersonator
deedee, why on earth are you digging up threads that no one has posted in for over 5 years? Do you believe these members are even still here to respond to you? :confused:

I'll offer that some ideas actually do survive longer than 5 years, even in the interweb tubes...

...and may be of interest to members that were not here waaayyy back even half a decade ago... :p
 
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