Don't lie to me...

[Hockeycowboy]

Well,you see, Jesus is letting humans control the earth for now. People do not want Jesus to control things. Think of the person dying from lung cancer who still wants another cigarette. That person does not want Jesus to step in and take the cigarette from his hand. The alcoholic who is about to get in a car and run over someone does not want Jesus to take away the car keys. Jesus is letting people run things so they can see that they are not able to prevent trouble from happening. It is sad that some people will get hurt it is noot fair to stop some problems and not stop others. Humans must learn to stop their own problems.

Nice post.

Humans must learn to stop their own problems.

We never will. We weren’t built to self-govern....only have dominion over the animals, and our individual families.
Jeremiah 10:23 has never been more accurate, as what we’ve observed in the last 1 1/2 centuries...especially since 1914....

“Ever since 1914, everybody conscious of trends in the world has been deeply troubled by what has seemed like a fated and predetermined march toward ever greater disaster. Many serious people have come to feel that nothing can be done to avert the plunge towards ruin.”—Bertrand Russell, The New York Times Magazine, September 27, 1953.

“Half a century has gone by, yet the mark that the tragedy of the Great War left on the body and soul of the nations has not faded . . . The physical and moral magnitude of this ordeal was such that nothing left was the same as before. Society in its entirety: systems of government, national borders, laws, armed forces, interstate relations, but also ideologies, family life, fortunes, positions, personal relations—everything was changed from top to bottom. . . . Humanity finally lost its balance, never to recover it to this day.” (General Charles de Gaulle, Le Monde, Nov. 12, 1968, p. 9)

“In 1914 the world lost a coherence which it has not managed to recapture since. . . . This has been a time of extraordinary disorder and violence, both across national frontiers and within them.” (The Economist)

 

[Left Coast]

***Trigger Warning***

Anyone who morally equates letting someone (a child, no less) be raped or tortured or murdered with "tough love" or "letting kids learn from their mistakes" or "surgery" has no rational room to ever morally criticize anyone, ever. If that's how you think the hero of the story acts, what in the world do you think the villain is like?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

1 John 5:19 We know that we are of God, and that the whole world is under the power of the evil one.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Although I totally hear you and agree that whatever "love" a celestial Jesus has for us is an incredibly ****ty kind of love, I would caution that it's not necessarily a "lie." An irrational belief can be honestly held. And I think that's where most Christians are coming from. They're not intentionally deceiving anyone.

I don't how "deep" you was into Christianity, but when you're taught god will be there for you, that all it takes faith and believe Jesus will ease your burdens, it really does start to feel like a lie. They tell you to keep Job in mind, and although he was being tested he had things taken from him and inflicted on him. When you don't really have anything meaningful to take and you've been inflicted with various conditions since birth, being told to read Job starts to feel like a slap in the face. Nothing gets better, things only get harder, and you're surrounded by images reminded you of these promises that are just not coming to fruition, and instead of getting better things only keep getting worse.
The Nine Inch Nail's song Terrible Lie revolves around the same subject, including how this also deals heavily with a sense of comfort and peace that often comes from belief. Which also brings to feel like you were lied to, because there is no peace or comfort.
And then there is also all the hymns and even the Bible itself. Finding out what god's book really says without someone telling you what to read, and thus seeing all the bloody, savage, gory, oppressive, and inhumane parts, that feels like another lie when you have been lead to believe how loving and merciful and forgiving god is.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yet you’re who you are today as a result of your experiences. And based on what I’ve learned about you here, I think you turned out quite well.

What would your life have been like if believing in Jesus was like pressing the “easy” button?

The best parents have to make make difficult decisions to grant experiences that will help their child make good decisions. My daughter wouldn’t be the strong woman she is if I sheltered her from every potential hurt along the way.

There is a difference between difficult decisions, sheltering from hurt, and abuse. Abuse and trauma literally leave their impact on the brain as it rewires it, and it sets children up for a difficult life as adults ranging from interpersonal relationship issues, mental health issues, low self esteem and confidence, lack of social networks, are more likely to engage in high risk behaviors,

try the book of Job

To read about god's gambling problem? How he is a sadistic monster who is ok with permitting heinous atrocities upon someone?

All he ever promised is that he would support us through the hardships that would inevitably come from humans throwing God and his rules out the window.

What about those hardships you are born with? What about those hardships you are constantly left to struggle with alone?

Sometimes painful operations are needed to correct physical problems...the same applies spiritually.

I'm pretty sure the "painful operation" would be for Christians to actually start considering criticisms against there religion instead making infinite excuses to deny, dismiss, cover up, not hear, not consider, reject, and downplay these criticisms.

 

[Brian2]

Funny thing, I was listening to sort of philosophical argument about religion the other day, and suddenly heard music that I have know just about literally all of my life:

Jesus loves me, this I know
For the Bible tells me so
Little ones to Him belong
They are weak, but He is strong

Like many of you, I was taught this when I was very little, and the words and music are indelibly imprinted on my mind. (This is not all that strange -- as someone who loves to act and sing, I have a fabulous memory for music and lyrics. I can remember things, even in other languages, that I learned 60 years ago and more.)

But back to the lie...maybe it was just this simple how Christianity lost me as a customer (or tithe payer, which I think they prefer). You see, when I was very, very little, my step-father used to enjoy drinking himself stupid, and then coming home and beating up his wife (my mother) and me. I lived with them in this horror from the ages of 4 to 7, and at 5 and 7, he did in fact nearly kill me. Then the Children's Aid won a court order that severed me from them forever.

But, what happens to a kid who hears this really important, so-called truth: that there is an immensely powerful being who loves me, and is so much stronger than everybody else that he can also save me? And then that kid goes home, likely to be beaten up by somebody 8 times his size, possibly leading to another trip to the hospital -- and who actually asks this Jesus for help?

What is he likely to wind up believing? That Jesus loves him? That Jesus is strong enough to stop the hurt? Or that none of that seems to be true?

And how do you rate the likelihood that this bull**** cost the church another believer?

I have a friend who was sexually abused as a child by relatives and he has a similar problem of wondering where Jesus was during those times. He is a Christian however but finds it hard to forgive the perpetrators, understandably.
It sounds like it is a good thing that you were saved from that situation even if it was at the cost of losing your parents.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

And then there is.....even the Bible itself. Finding out what god's book really says,......and thus seeing all the bloody, savage, gory, oppressive, and inhumane parts, that feels like another lie when you have been lead to believe how loving and merciful and forgiving god is.

Yes, it should make you wonder, "Why does the Bible, which encourages us to love God, tell us about His actions that may seem unloving?" Just why is it so candid about such things?

You'd think, to get our affection, He'd want to keep His judgments, out of His book! Just feed us 'sweets & cotton candy.'

Or, just maybe, Jehovah wants us to learn something?
2 Timothy 3:16-17; Romans 15:4

However you wish to look at it, thinking deeply on the subject leads one to the conclusion that such candid revelations lend credence to it's genuineness.

 

[sun rise]

What's the point of having a God if you have to do all his work?

Because we are all cells in the being of God so being incarnate we can do divine work.

 

[Deeje]

What about those hardships you are born with? What about those hardships you are constantly left to struggle with alone?

What about them...? We are largely a product of our parents and their situation in life...we don't get to choose where we are born, to whom, what our genetics will dictate, or in what circumstances we will be raised. But for those with a spiritual leaning and with a desire to get to know their Creator, help is always there. If people don't want to know him, or to know that there is a purpose to this often poor excuse for a life, there is always the mystery of "why me"? The Bible answers that question with "why not me"? It tells us how adversity can make us a better, stronger and more resilient person? But we first have to know ourselves and what makes us tick, before we can make adjustments that alleviate the pain.....too often we can make it worse.

Understanding the reason for our lot in life can be tackled two ways...we can wallow in self pity, and do nothing but complain, or we can get up off our backside and make something of lives.....even if that means being of assistance to others in spite of the fact that we may need assistance ourselves. Character is built by adversity not luxury.

I'm pretty sure the "painful operation" would be for Christians to actually start considering criticisms against there religion instead making infinite excuses to deny, dismiss, cover up, not hear, not consider, reject, and downplay these criticisms.

That depends entirely upon what you mean by "Christians"......as you are well aware there are those who are "Christians" in name only...something they fill in on a form but really don't practice any religion....and there are "Christians" who consider themselves so, who go to church, but never follow the teachings of Jesus Christ or follow his example in their everyday life. They pick up their "Christianity" at the door, and leave it there on the way out.

Genuine Christians (and yes, Jesus differentiated between those who are, and those who pretend to be) are the ones who don't have to make excuses, deny, or downplay the fact that Christianity today has the same reputation as Judaism had in Jesus' day, claiming one thing and hypocritically doing the opposite. The genuine ones are out there, but the fake ones drown them out and give Christianity a bad name.

In my own case, I was raised in a church that was nothing but hypocritical, so I left it and went in search of something I felt was genuine. I knew that they didn't have to be perfect because nobody is.....but they had to practice what they preached....and they had to be genuine in their worship and know the one whose interests they were serving.

Just as a parent would allow their child to undergo painful surgery to correct a birth defect, knowing that the pain of the operation would be balanced by the success of the outcome, so God has told us why we are in pain, and what we can do to minimize the risks associated with our recovery. We are often the victims of our own stupid choices. We increase the pain of living by not following through on the Bible's advice because we think we know better.

Life in this world was never going to be easy, but if you know why its tough, and you have a light at the end of the tunnel that isn't a locomotive....you can make the best of it. That has been my experience.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

However you wish to look at it, thinking deeply on the subject leads one to the conclusion that such candid revelations lend credence to it's genuineness.

There is no genius in infanticide. There is no genius in the Bible's virginity test. There is no genius in being so barbarous that not even animals are safe when god sends someone on warpath. And then god himself, he'd rather just keep on killing things, too stubborn and dumb to realize doing the same thing over and over again never changes the result. He apparently did, or there wouldn't have been such a flood.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It tells us how adversity can make us a better, stronger and more resilient person?

Abuse is not character building. Abuse is destructive. Abuse is to set someone up for a lifetime of problems.

But for those with a spiritual leaning and with a desire to get to know their Creator, help is always there. I

Another fine example of Christians not wanting to listen. Of course god is there, even when people say he wasn't. It's the Christian way to just assume anything other than anything related to christianity is to blame.

Understanding the reason for our lot in life can be tackled two ways...we can wallow in self pity, and do nothing but complain, or we can get up off our backside and make something of lives.....even if that means being of assistance to others in spite of the fact that we may need assistance ourselves. Character is built by adversity not luxury.

Abuse is not adversity. Abuse can cause very deep and very problematic issues.
A fine example for when I said Christians will downplay things to make themselves look innocent.
They are not innocent when they do things like this.

 

[blü 2]

Again, the song isn't biblical... but I think we can look at a more macro viewpoint using it as an analogy:

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Let's say this is your dad - he's just living his life without a care.
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Let's say this is you. The sores of dad afflicted you. Please note that problems do come (poverty) - Jesus acknowledged that pain comes and it does happen to people -
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
he (you) wanted to be free of problems--help didn't come (or at least not how you wanted). the rich man (your father) - kept on living as if he had no responsibilities and was free to do evil
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
He died with his problems (I am thankful that you staid alive) - he died also (inevitable for all people)
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
BUT that isn't the end of all things. Lazarus is now free from all hurts and the one who inflicted pain is now in pain. The tables have changed and the recompense for the crying, the hurting and the dying.

So basically, there would still be justice - and maybe a greater recompense for you. But I certainly would say that because a song wasn't scriptural then everything they said was a lie.

But surely the problem that @Evangelicalhumanist raises is one of the oldest in the book, going back to at least the third century BCE and probably earlier ─ what is often referred to as "the problem of pain".

Which means,

IF God is omnipotent
AND God is benevolent
THEN how CAN there be suffering?​

And there can't be suffering UNLESS God is NOT omnipotent OR unless God is NOT benevolent OR unless God is neither.

Any other answer is just rationalizing, surely?

 

[Deeje]

Abuse is not character building. Abuse is destructive. Abuse is to set someone up for a lifetime of problems.

I agree, what made you think I wouldn't? Abuse is destructive but again, we can wallow in self pity or gather ourselves up and get help. We do not have to be destroyed by the actions and attitudes of others....unless we let them. I am saying that help is available to the victim, both mentally, emotionally and spiritually if they seek the right kind. The 'right kind' is the one that rescues you from your past and puts you on the right path to a better future.

Another fine example of Christians not wanting to listen. Of course god is there, even when people say he wasn't. It's the Christian way to just assume anything other than anything related to christianity is to blame.

How is Christianity to blame? Genuine Christianity cannot be blamed for someone's abuse....because it wouldn't happen by the hand of a genuine follower of Christ......nor would failure to recover from abuse result, because the Bible teaches us how to recover.

If Christianity is a contributor to the problem, then something is horribly wrong with the way it was offered, or in the way it is received. Its sometimes hard for a person to determine which.

But having said that, we have to understand that Christian principles apply to Christians and there is no way to negate them. If people think that God will alter his moral standards to accommodate someone's sexual orientation or desire to have sex outside of marriage, then there can be no compromise.

I believe in your own situation you have spoken of your freedom and happiness since abandoning anything associated with Christianity, but I have to wonder what it was that you sought refuge from...? Was it the religion itself that was abusive?

Abuse is not adversity. Abuse can cause very deep and very problematic issues.
A fine example for when I said Christians will downplay things to make themselves look innocent.
They are not innocent when they do things like this.

Do things like what? Can you be more specific? What is this downplaying? Help me understand.

 

[viole]

I belong to him (because I'm little and weak)

And have a little predisposition to believe nice tales to be factually true.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Clara Tea]

Funny thing, I was listening to sort of philosophical argument about religion the other day, and suddenly heard music that I have know just about literally all of my life:

Jesus loves me, this I know
For the Bible tells me so
Little ones to Him belong
They are weak, but He is strong

Like many of you, I was taught this when I was very little, and the words and music are indelibly imprinted on my mind. (This is not all that strange -- as someone who loves to act and sing, I have a fabulous memory for music and lyrics. I can remember things, even in other languages, that I learned 60 years ago and more.)

But back to the lie...maybe it was just this simple how Christianity lost me as a customer (or tithe payer, which I think they prefer). You see, when I was very, very little, my step-father used to enjoy drinking himself stupid, and then coming home and beating up his wife (my mother) and me. I lived with them in this horror from the ages of 4 to 7, and at 5 and 7, he did in fact nearly kill me. Then the Children's Aid won a court order that severed me from them forever.

But, what happens to a kid who hears this really important, so-called truth: that there is an immensely powerful being who loves me, and is so much stronger than everybody else that he can also save me? And then that kid goes home, likely to be beaten up by somebody 8 times his size, possibly leading to another trip to the hospital -- and who actually asks this Jesus for help?

What is he likely to wind up believing? That Jesus loves him? That Jesus is strong enough to stop the hurt? Or that none of that seems to be true?

And how do you rate the likelihood that this bull**** cost the church another believer?

This is the same reason that the churches are losing members. They are disenchanted with people of power. They tried voting for a Christian who fights evil, only to make wars and a torture camp, all justified with phony reasons, and all hidden from the American people. They voted in a president who destroyed the environment, crashed the economy, and didn't help hurricane Katrina victims. The original campaign promise to stop abortion was completely abandoned.

When those who have power over us, deeply disappoint us, we tend to lose faith in everything.

We must find that inner child within us, the one that believes with all his heart, and who listens to God.

 

[Deeje]

You may not have read my thoughts on Job before, although I have spent a fair amount of time on the topic. I find it to be one of the very worst books of the Bible.

At very minimum, you have to acknowledge this: God let all of Job's children be killed. Getting another batch of children later may be some comfort, but doesn't redress the deaths of the others.

There is a bigger picture to Job....based on his assessment of the man's character, God allowed the devil to make an extreme example of him.....as the most faithful man alive at that time (a Patriarch of the time before Israel became a nation) Job came to be the most incredible example of faithfulness to his God than any son of Adam ever has.

Job may have lost his 10 children and God did provide him with 10 more, not to replace his lost sons and daughters, but to compensate him for their loss. After all those trials, the loss of his children...his wealth, his health and the betrayal of his friends, God restored Job to full health, multiplied his wealth and gave him more children....and as the last chapter of Job records....
"So Jehovah blessed the last part of Job’s life more than the beginning, and Job came to have 14,000 sheep, 6,000 camels, 1,000 pairs of cattle, and 1,000 female donkeys. 13 He also came to have seven more sons and three more daughters. . . . .
16 After this Job lived for 140 years, and he saw his children and his grandchildren—four generations. 17 Finally Job died, after a long and satisfying life."

Did Job die as a broken man? Filled with bitterness and discontent regarding what had unjustly happened to him? It does not indicate that at all.....and Job believed strongly in the resurrection, so in the new world that he awaited, he knew that God would call his whole family from their graves to be reunited with all his children in a wonderful family reunion that they will all enjoy as they look forward to what God has in store for this earth and beyond. They will be together forever in the Paradise that God planned for the human race all along.

Job is the hero and prime example to all of God's worshippers because he could not be broken by the devil's vicious assault...he refused to blame God for any of it, even though he was not privy to the bargaining that was taking place behind the scenes. He kept his faith intact in spite of not knowing why he was suffering. He just knew that he had done nothing to deserve it...and he even endured the accusations of those who said he must have been getting punished for some kind of wrongdoing.

Job's wife also endured all that he did, and in desperation told him to just "curse God and die" but he refused to do that, knowing that he had always had the favor and blessing of his God. He simply endured without once doing as the devil claimed he would....'curse God to his face'.

When the chips are down for us, we have Job's example to bounce off.....in case we are tempted to feel sorry for ourselves....remember what happened to him, and how he handled the situation....and what he has to look forward to.

 

[RestlessSoul]

But surely the problem that @Evangelicalhumanist raises is one of the oldest in the book, going back to at least the third century BCE and probably earlier ─ what is often referred to as "the problem of pain".

Which means,

IF God is omnipotent
AND God is benevolent
THEN how CAN there be suffering?​

And there can't be suffering UNLESS God is NOT omnipotent OR unless God is NOT benevolent OR unless God is neither.

Any other answer is just rationalizing, surely?

Maybe there is no answer.

 

[Kenny]

But surely the problem that @Evangelicalhumanist raises is one of the oldest in the book, going back to at least the third century BCE and probably earlier ─ what is often referred to as "the problem of pain".

Which means,

IF God is omnipotent
AND God is benevolent
THEN how CAN there be suffering?​

And there can't be suffering UNLESS God is NOT omnipotent OR unless God is NOT benevolent OR unless God is neither.

Any other answer is just rationalizing, surely?

That certainly is a big question.

IMV, it goes back to original intent. If God IS omnipotent, can God give the world to mankind?. Yes.

If God is omniscient and the God of love, can God see the value of love by choice and not by force? Yes.

If so, then mankind chose to follow his own dictates and not love God on the earth that belonged to mankind, it would explain why there is suffering.

If God is benevolent, what would He do?

1. As the Word incarnate, He would suffer the abuse of mankind
2. As the second Adam, He would take the place for the sins of mankind
3. As the son of man, He would bare the sickness and pain of mankind
4. As the Son of God, He would purchase the peace for mankind

So, at the very least, He now understands the unjust suffering of what mankind suffered.
At the very most, He offered redemption from the suffering for all eternity.
And in the meantime, He still offers the free will of love and keys of the kingdom to power through this life as so many have and as short as it is

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I have a friend who was sexually abused as a child by relatives and he has a similar problem of wondering where Jesus was during those times. He is a Christian however but finds it hard to forgive the perpetrators, understandably.

And oddly, I am not a Christian, or a believer of any kind, and yet I have fully and completely forgiven those who hurt me. Why? Because I came to realize that they had no more real control over their situation than I had over mine. And it was only when I could forgive completely that I was freed of all of it.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Job may have lost his 10 children and God did provide him with 10 more, not to replace his lost sons and daughters, but to compensate him for their loss.

Unbelievable!

Isn't God nice, to compensate for Job's loss of his children -- all 10 of them. But wait, wasn't it God who permitted those 10 deaths? Why does everybody simply gloss over that glaring fact as if it weren't there at all, and focus only on "the good stuff?"

I find that to be a terrible, terrible fault in religious thinking.