Don't try and say your omnimax god has a reason to allow suffering

[TheKnight]

Even if there is a good result, the point remains: the suffering was needless, and one who makes others suffer needlessly is evil. An all-powerful being could create a universe in which that "good result" could be achieved without suffering.

I believe that the suffering is necessary.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Even if there is a good result, the point remains: the suffering was needless, and one who makes others suffer needlessly is evil. An all-powerful being could create a universe in which that "good result" could be achieved without suffering.

From the OP (17 pages ago):



Respond when you grasp this concept.

I think your idea of suffering and the Bible's idea of suffering are two different things.
Before you respond, at least consider what I am saying.

I agree with your original post 100% if suffering is what you say it is.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Even if there is a good result, the point remains: the suffering was needless, and one who makes others suffer needlessly is evil. An all-powerful being could create a universe in which that "good result" could be achieved without suffering.

Devil's advocate time:

I'm not sure that your statement "one who makes others suffer needlessly is evil" is necessarily correct. If the choice is between me suffering greatly and someone else suffering slightly, I don't think it's necessarily evil to make the other person suffer slightly.

For example: say I realize I'm having a heart attack while I'm driving in the middle of rush hour, so I pull off onto the shoulder of the highway. Should I call 9-1-1? If I do, the ambulance will block the road, causing a traffic jam and even potentially some secondary collisions. If I don't, I'll probably die. Is it "evil" for me to call 9-1-1, knowing that it will cause some measure of suffering for others?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there's another way of looking at it: if causing suffering for us allows God to relieve much more of His own suffering, then the overall situation, including our suffering, might be seen as good.

Now... this leads to the question of whether an omnipotent God might "suffer". I know that Christianity says "yes", but I'm not sure how to answer that question myself.

 

[CarlinKnew]

Devil's advocate time:

I'm not sure that your statement "one who makes others suffer needlessly is evil" is necessarily correct. If the choice is between me suffering greatly and someone else suffering slightly, I don't think it's necessarily evil to make the other person suffer slightly.

For example: say I realize I'm having a heart attack while I'm driving in the middle of rush hour, so I pull off onto the shoulder of the highway. Should I call 9-1-1? If I do, the ambulance will block the road, causing a traffic jam and even potentially some secondary collisions. If I don't, I'll probably die. Is it "evil" for me to call 9-1-1, knowing that it will cause some measure of suffering for others?

Although, in the above situation, suffering is going to happen no matter what: it's unavoidable, it's necessary, it "needs" to happen one way or the other. If you don't call the ambulance, you inflict suffering on yourself; if you do call, you inflict suffering on others. As a mere mortal, there's nothing you can do to prevent the suffering. However, if you were all-powerful and you made one of the above choices, you would be inflicting needless suffering, given that you could effortlessly create a third option: remove all suffering instantly.

 

[CarlinKnew]

I believe that the suffering is necessary.

If you believe that, and you believe your god is all-powerful, then you are deluding yourself in order to believe a contradiction. Nothing is necessary for an omnipotent being.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Although, in the above situation, suffering is going to happen no matter what: it's unavoidable, it's necessary, it "needs" to happen one way or the other. If you don't call the ambulance, you inflict suffering on yourself; if you do call, you inflict suffering on others. As a mere mortal, there's nothing you can do to prevent the suffering. However, if you were all-powerful and you made one of the above choices, you would be inflicting needless suffering, given that you could effortlessly create a third option: remove all suffering instantly.

True, true...

 

[Erebus]

Did we make a mess of things?

I believe that God made the world imperfect in order that we (mankind) would perfect it.

I WOULD rather live in a world with no pain, no death, and no suffering. And I'm very thankful to God that He created this world in such a way that I can have a part in making that preferable world a reality.

It's like building a house. If someone gives you a house, you appreciate it less than if you build it yourself. I think it's a blessing that God, rather than just giving us the world we want, has given us the opportunity to make that world. I believe it is a beautiful gift that He has given us, to have an active part in the creation of a perfect world.

See the above. God created this world in such a way that we have the ability to have an active part in it's creation. Your drive for Hesed (loving-kindness) is the drive that you (and all humanity) have been given in order that we might one day perfect this world. You WOULD do it for your love ones, so God says to you "I want you to do it, then. You love this world, you love the people in it, now I'm giving YOU the opportunity to make it a better place."

And, as I wrote in my earlier post, asking "Why can't God reach the ends without the necessary means?" is like asking "Why can't God make a stone so heavy that He can't lift it?"

I would turn it down in favor of this world. I would much rather have the ability and the power to build my heaven, than to have my heaven given to me. After all, who doesn't appreciate a house that they built with their own hands?

I can see where you're coming from... I don't agree with you but I think I understand your point a little better.
I still maintain though that there are too many horrors in this world that are beyond our control that an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God has no reason to allow to happen. While I can understand the notion that we can create a world we feel we have earned, it seems that the process is too slow. How many Billions have died to natural disasters and incurable diseases? Things that we may lack the technology to prevent for centuries to come. In my eyes an all loving God wouldn't allow this to happen, simply because these deaths are needless.

 

[Beaudreaux]

The child who died of cancer is probably in a better place. Lucky him.

Absolutely! It's a great thing. May they all die of cancer!

 

[Beaudreaux]

Devil's advocate time:

I love how defending God in this thread makes you a devil's advocate.

Of course, that fits right in with the tenor of conversations that talk about how suffering is actually good.

 

[Willamena]

That is the whole point of theodicy. The premises and inherent assumptions in many monotheistic religions are logically contradictory. The only way to solve the -problem is to do away with one or more of the premises OR to throw logic out the window and say that it's all just a mystery.

Premise 1: God is all powerful (Can do anything)
Premise 2: God is all loving (wants the best for us)
Premise 3: Evil and suffering are real (Awful things happen to us)

Those three things cannot be put together logically. That's the whole issue. If people want to come along and say that one of those three premises is not true, that's cool, but you can't say that all three are and still be logical.

They don't have to be contradictory --that's my point. They are only contradictory because of the inherent assumptions in your premises.

 

[Beaudreaux]

They don't have to be contradictory --that's my point. They are only contradictory because of the inherent assumptions in your premises.

Then you must do away with one of the three assumtions (which it sounds like you are ready to do). So, which one goes?

• God can do anything.
• God wants what's best for us.
• Awful things happen to us.

 

[Anti-thesisofreason]

This is one of the classic approaches to the problem of evil; removing the third premise (Evil and suffering are real). Here you are saying that there really is no evil in the world because everything really has a good effect. Aquinas went so far as to say that we are living in the best of all possible worlds. I think this is a bit.....optimistic. It works well in theory, but try it at the funeral of a child who has died of cancer....

I don't think that is what I was saying.

I'm asking if there were no challenges to life, no pain, no suffering, no having to get up and go to work in the morning, no competition for that promotion would life be worth living?

If you had everything handed to you that you ever wanted and you never had to lift a finger to do it what would your life be like what would you do with your life would it really be improved?

If our ancestors didn't have to scrape a living together just to survive the day so many millions of years ago would we be who we are today?

That being said, does evil exist outside of human perception or is evil just an extreme of something bad?

Is a tornado, earthquake or hurricane evil?

Is a mountain lion attacking a small child for food evil?
Is a mountain lion attacking a mountain goat for food evil?

What is evil?

 

[Anti-thesisofreason]

Of course it is. This doesn't mean that life wouldn't be better without pain and suffering.

What would you get out of life without any pain or suffering?
(just asking).

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What would you get out of life without any pain or suffering?
(just asking).

IMO, not a whole lot. But my world view does not include an omnipotent god who has decided to act benevolently toward me.

 

[Anti-thesisofreason]

If you believe that, and you believe your god is all-powerful, then you are deluding yourself in order to believe a contradiction. Nothing is necessary for an omnipotent being.

Why would a god want or need to create us in the first place?

 

[Anti-thesisofreason]

IMO, not a whole lot. But my world view does not include an omnipotent god who has decided to act benevolently toward me.

Fair enough.

 

[McBell]

I'm asking if there were no challenges to life, no pain, no suffering, no having to get up and go to work in the morning, no competition for that promotion would life be worth living?

If you had everything handed to you that you ever wanted and you never had to lift a finger to do it what would your life be like what would you do with your life would it really be improved?

Is this not exactly what is preached that heaven is?

If our ancestors didn't have to scrape a living together just to survive the day so many millions of years ago would we be who we are today?

How is this even relevant to the OP?

That being said, does evil exist outside of human perception or is evil just an extreme of something bad?

Is a tornado, earthquake or hurricane evil?

Is a mountain lion attacking a small child for food evil?
Is a mountain lion attacking a mountain goat for food evil?

What is evil?

"evil" is far to subjective a term to actually be of any use.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Ergo he's not all-loving.

Indeed, but that would preclude him being all-loving.

It's pretty well accepted that God has more than one trait.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Why would a god want or need to create us in the first place?

I asked a similar question here (http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/1650077-post14.html). I don't think I got any responses but it's ok. But these types of questions crossed my mind as well.

If and all knowing and all power god created you what would be the purpose of it punishing you for not obeying its rules/laws?

Wouldn't you not already be submitting to the (will) of the creator by doing the things he created you to do?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

It's pretty well accepted that God has more than one trait.

It's also pretty well accepted that the Great Wall of China can be seen from outer-space, that George Washington had wooden teeth, and that people thought the world was flat before 1492.