Double-blind Prayer Efficacy Test -- Really?

[Polymath257]

If you pray for rain, and it just happens to rain then you could 'look at the odds.' And it might be there was a ten percent chance
of rain. So you can't tell. And besides, what interest does God have in your rain gauge, given that that whole bible is about the
way to go to heaven, and worrying about earlhly matters?
But if you pray for God's wisdom, guidance, grace, forgiveness etc and you (and everyone else) sees a change come into your
life, things happening that you had no power over, then you might want to consider God has answered an honest and wholly
appropriate prayer.

On the contrary, once again there was a chance of things happening that way. Possibly a good chance. So once again, there is no conclusion possible either way.

The difficulty is that all positive evidence for God seems to be very similar to confirmation bias and all evidence against God is said to not satisfy the faith requirements, and so is a 'no true Scotsman' issue.

 

[Polymath257]

Well, it is obvious why it doesn't work for you as Jesus said, "Be it unto you according to your faith". It doesn't work for you because you don't believe (one of the points).

You simply have "unbelief" as Jesus said. (In the Christian perspective). Which is fine.

You don't have to have the benefits of prayer and you have the free will to exercise your capacity in your own strength.

I'm just glad I can reap the benefit.

So, to design a double blind study that meets your criteria, how do we determine the degree of belief of a person and verify that they would be a good candidate to do the prayer?

 

[Polymath257]

Santa is real... it is your parents.

Thanks for helping me prove my point.

The guy in a red suit that drives a sleigh through the sky pulled by reindeer and delivers presents to children all over the world is not real.

 

[KWED]

If you pray for rain, and it just happens to rain then you could 'look at the odds.' And it might be there was a ten percent chance
of rain. So you can't tell. And besides, what interest does God have in your rain gauge, given that that whole bible is about the
way to go to heaven, and worrying about earlhly matters?
But if you pray for God's wisdom, guidance, grace, forgiveness etc and you (and everyone else) sees a change come into your
life, things happening that you had no power over, then you might want to consider God has answered an honest and wholly
appropriate prayer.

People change their lives all the time. How do you know that it wasn't change from within rather than change from god?
Things happen to people that they have no power over all the time. Why are those events caused by god rather than just happening?

Once again, you are simply taking examples of everyday events and ascribing them to god through confirmation bias, wishful thinking, Texas sharpshooter, etc fallacies.

Talk specifics. Give an example of actual, verifiable events that you believe are prayers being answered.

 

[KWED]

We have medical verifications. We have a multitude of people who can testify of its efficacy.

Church attendance, allostatic load and mortality in middle aged adults

another study:

Religious Service Attendance and Mortality Among Women

My main point is that I gave just three reasons why "the quotes against prayer" didn't have the correct parameters. Prayer has spiritual principles that are necessary to be effective.

Your first study admits that the churchgoing cohort had higher socio-economic and educational levels than the non-churchgoers. Those two things alone explain lower mortality and better health. It is a well-known connection. The church element is already superfluous.
The second study admits that its methodology and results are questionable for a variety of reasons.

People who go to church (where prayer is engaged are 55% less likely to die:

lol! No they are not! They are just as likely to die as everyone else, ie. 100% certainty.

 

[PruePhillip]

People change their lives all the time. How do you know that it wasn't change from within rather than change from god?
Things happen to people that they have no power over all the time. Why are those events caused by god rather than just happening?

Once again, you are simply taking examples of everyday events and ascribing them to god through confirmation bias, wishful thinking, Texas sharpshooter, etc fallacies.

Talk specifics. Give an example of actual, verifiable events that you believe are prayers being answered.

What makes you think the things of the spirit are amendable to the scientific method?
That's like trying to study what happened before the Big Bang when no physics existed - how can you study that?
But the bible makes the point OFTEN, that you have to 'prove for yourself' the verity of its claims. And if you don't
then you haven't learned anything, you are imitating.

 

[Polymath257]

What makes you think the things of the spirit are amendable to the scientific method?
That's like trying to study what happened before the Big Bang when no physics existed - how can you study that?
But the bible makes the point OFTEN, that you have to 'prove for yourself' the verity of its claims. And if you don't
then you haven't learned anything, you are imitating.

So....

set yourself up for confirmation bias. How about 'disprove to yourself'?

 

[SkepticThinker]

A lot of people whose prayer was fulfilled (including me) would not agree with you.
Because sincere praying to God doesn't mean testing it.

There is also a verse somewhere in the bible which says we should not stop praying for same thing over and over again.

How did those people determine that their prayer was answered by God(s) and not just random chance?

 

[Polymath257]

How did those people determine that their prayer was answered by God(s) and not just random chance?

Or hat the prayers were *denied* by God and not just by random chance?

Ultimately, the question is whether *any* prayers have an effectiveness any different than random chance. And how that could be determined if they do.

 

[Wildswanderer]

God always answers our prayers. He just usually says "no".

The thing that should bother you (if you really believe that your god answers prayers) is why god so regularly seems to answer people's prayers for trivial, everyday events based on self-interest, like passing exams, getting a loan, etc. Yet he never seems to answer the prayers of devout parents of children dying in agony, etc.

Why are his priorities so ****ed up?

Never? Don't think this is at all accurate.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

So, to design a double blind study that meets your criteria, how do we determine the degree of belief of a person and verify that they would be a good candidate to do the prayer?

Apparently, the prayers of an abused child don't meet the correct criteria for an effective prayer. I prayed for years when I was a child, pleading with God to stop the abuse I suffered, but obviously he didn't care. There's a very important lesson I've learned in my life, and that is that I don't need God to survive in life or to be a good person. Having faith in God was completely useless and a waste of my time.

 

[Polymath257]

Never? Don't think this is at all accurate.

OK, no better than chance.

That is, unless you can design a study that shows a different conclusion that is double blind and is done with accurate statistics.

 

[Sheldon]

What makes you think the things of the spirit are amendable to the scientific method?

What objective evidence can you demonstrate they are not? Don't forget it is @KenS who is making claims about the efficacy of prayer here based (allegedly) on scientific research.

That's like trying to study what happened before the Big Bang when no physics existed - how can you study that?

No it isn't, firstly that's pure assumptions, secondly you just implied one of the things you're comparing cannot be examined by the scientific method, now your making a claim about it, and comparing it pre-Planck time, which we currently don't have a method of understanding. Making an appeal to mystery about something, then immediately make an assertion about it, is irrational.

But the bible makes the point OFTEN, that you have to 'prove for yourself' the verity of its claims.

So what, no one is obliged to accept unevidenced assertions like that, and it is asserting that claims should be verified through individual subjective opinion, hardly a compelling idea.

 

[Wildswanderer]

OK, no better than chance.

That is, unless you can design a study that shows a different conclusion that is double blind and is done with accurate statistics.

I only need the evidence of my eyes and mind. Studies can be made to show whatever they want to show.

 

[Polymath257]

I only need the evidence of my eyes and mind. Studies can be made to show whatever they want to show.

If that is the case, then the studies are not constructed well or interpreted correctly.

 

[Sand Dancer]

God always answers our prayers. He just usually says "no".

The thing that should bother you (if you really believe that your god answers prayers) is why god so regularly seems to answer people's prayers for trivial, everyday events based on self-interest, like passing exams, getting a loan, etc. Yet he never seems to answer the prayers of devout parents of children dying in agony, etc.

Why are his priorities so ****ed up?

He wishes to be able to drive a car and play baseball but he can't, so he vicariously does those things through those he helps.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

My sympathies for the abuse you suffered, I am truly sorry to hear this, and I greatly admire the way you have taken charge of your life, and done your very best to move on and build a positive life for yourself.

On a lighter note, when one of my grandsons was 6 he was diagnosed with a nut allergy, and it was hard to see him denied things and all the other children enjoy them. So one day he announced to his parents he was an atheist, his fathers family are Catholics. I had never spoken to him to him about religion so was intrigued, and his mother told me he prayed earnestly for months to god to cure him, but god didn't do anything, so he wasn't going to believe in god anymore. He was always a smart kid, bless him.

Thank you for your kind sentiment. I appreciate it. And yes, your grandson is a smart kid for realizing at an early age that believing in God is pointless and a waste of time. I hope that he doesn't waste his life falsely believing that God is loving and merciful and is worthy of our praise and worship. I wish I had learned at an early age not to waste my time believing in God or praying to him.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What makes you think the things of the spirit are amendable to the scientific method?
That's like trying to study what happened before the Big Bang when no physics existed - how can you study that?
But the bible makes the point OFTEN, that you have to 'prove for yourself' the verity of its claims. And if you don't
then you haven't learned anything, you are imitating.

Anything with measurable physical effects is "amenable to the scientific method."

 

[paradox]

How did those people determine that their prayer was answered by God(s) and not just random chance?

I think they don't seek to determine that, at least not in the way that those so called "test" do.

 

[paradox]

How can we test the beliefs of both the person praying and the person being prayed for? How can we test for the sincerity? How can we select people that pass this so that we can even proceed to a test?

You can't test because God can't and should not be tested.

The test in the OP took people who believe in the power of prayer and had them pray according to their beliefs.

That may be one of the problems "according to their beliefs".
I believe in one God, Yahweh and no others, if they prayed to the woods or the moon that may answer why there was no answer.