Double-blind Prayer Efficacy Test -- Really?

[Wildswanderer]

Nope.

Things that are produced through the scientific method, don't require faith.

Actually they do. You have to have faith in the people that did the experiments and the research and dug up the artifacts.

 

[Wildswanderer]

That is absolutely untrue as I taught the subject for 30 years after completing my graduate work. The amount of bones & fragments varies from find to find, although it is more likely that more will be missing the further back in time we go.

Even with that being the case with older finds, we don't just guess at what we've found as all bones fit together like a jig-saw puzzle. Reconstructions that involves skin, otoh, are indeed somewhat more speculative as skin rarely fossilizes.

But why do you keep inventing stories?

You just confirmed what I said, thanks!
Lots of room for speculation.

 

[metis]

You just confirmed what I said, thanks!
Lots of room for speculation.

When I see you making similar comments about your own religious beliefs then I'll take your comment above seriously. At least in science we generally make it clear when there's some room for doubt, which also includes how we write date times [+ and -].

 

[Wildswanderer]

When I see you making similar comments about your own religious beliefs then I'll take your comment above seriously. At least in science we generally make it clear when there's some room for doubt, which also includes how we write date times [+ and -].

I've never denied that belief is just that, belief, not proof... that's where science is supposed to be different.

 

[KWED]

Both agnostic theists and agnostic atheists don't make any sense.

Just because you don't understand something, doesn't mean it doesn't make sense.

 

[KWED]

That's easy. They are all made in God's image.

So god is an atheist who rejects the idea of the supernatural.
Cool.

 

[KWED]

Amazing what 'imagination' did for people in Jesus' day. So many who laid down their lives, gave up everything to go out as itinerate preachers for the entirety of their lives, and often, to die for their belief.

We've been through this before.
People have (and still do) lay down their lives for all sorts of things. Are you claiming that they are all the "true religion"?

And amazing too the imagination of people who spoke of this Messiah centuries or millenium before - even to stating the nation of Israel would end when He comes.

Question begging.
The magic stories about Jesus could have been made up to appear to fulfil prophecies.

I don't know if many philosophers were religion. But you can call a person's world view a philosophy too.

So religion and philosophy are not necessarily connected.

 

[Wildswanderer]

So god is an atheist who rejects the idea of the supernatural.
Cool.

Nope, where did you get that?
You seem to think that what we believe dictates what is.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

So god is an atheist who rejects the idea of the supernatural.
Cool.

If humans were created in God's image, then this would explain why they are capable of horrible cruelty towards one another and other living species on the planet. It would also explain why they are prone to selfishness, arrogance, narcissism, and indifference to other people's pain and suffering. On the other hand, there are obviously humans who are morally superior to the God of the Bible because they exhibit compassion and goodwill towards other people, and they don't willingly ignore the pain and suffering of others.

 

[KWED]

Actually God is more real than the room.

It's this kind of response that shows you have given up any semblance of objectivity or rational thought.

 

[KWED]

No, you couldn't build the parts of say the CERN accelerator to spec as per calibration and the computer software, then put it all together and do an experiment. Stop promoting the folk version of science.
It relies on a group effort. Basic science yes, but once it involves too many instruments and software, then no.

So are you saying that the CERN experiments were carried out by magic, or that they just happened spontaneously?

Real, actual people built the equipment and conducted the experiments. Obviously, no one individual can replicate every and all experiments ever conducted on their own, but they do have the potential to be involved in doing so in elected ones. If an experiment couldn't be replicated and a result confirmed, it wouldn't be science.

 

[KWED]

What a crock! I'm working outside as I usually do when the weather is decent, surrounded by life! The crows are calling the chickens are clucking and one of our sheep had five babies last night. Life is always a miracle, and science has no ultimate explanation for it. Only: "this is how we think life got from point A point B."
God explains why... Science only tries to explain how. The reason all this exists can't be" there's no reason." That is the most illogical answer of all.

Just because the child doesn't understand how their iPad works, doesn't mean it must be magic.

There is nothing "miraculous" about anything you have described. They all have well understood, scientific explanations (even your supposed "5 lamb miracle" is some way short of the record).
You even tacitly admit this, claiming that there must be a "why" behind it which only god can explain. Yet you still insist that all the everyday, practical, explained processes of nature must happen by magic.
Christmas must be a very special time for you.

 

[KWED]

You obviously don't understand the difference between beliefs and provable facts.

This is supposed to be satire, yes?

Lots of scientific ideas are beliefs.

Such as?

Go to any historical museum, and you'll see plaques saying " in such a such time period, millions of years ago, such and such was happening." Those are stated as fact, but they aren't. They are speculation based on what we have found in the present, and interpreted according to the current theories. We are being lied to.

You really don't understand how science works, do you? You actually do think it's like religion, where someone said something once and everyone just accepts it and steadfastly refuses to consider anything different.

Perhaps you really do wake up every morning wondering whether the phones or your computers or antibiotics or planes have just stopped working, because science in just "speculation" or "belief", and it has turned out to be wrong. Must be quite exciting.

 

[KWED]

Or even basic moral decency like atheists exhibit. It makes me wonder how Christians have gotten so far off the teachings and influence of Jesus over the millennia. This religion, especially the more conservative it is, gets more and more abstract, and less a personal basis for right thinking and actions. We see the KKK claim to be a Christian organization, and this informs us that this religion doesn't help make bad people good.

As Steven Weinberg said "Good people will do good, and bad people will do bad, but to get good people to do bad takes religion".
(I would add "or similar ideology")

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

So are you saying that the CERN experiments were carried out by magic, or that they just happened spontaneously?

Real, actual people built the equipment and conducted the experiments. Obviously, no one individual can replicate every and all experiments ever conducted on their own, but they do have the potential to be involved in doing so in elected ones. If an experiment couldn't be replicated and a result confirmed, it wouldn't be science.

Yes, no one did it alone. That was all.

 

[KWED]

The alien explanation is just kicking a can up the road, it's not an explanation of how everything came to be.

You really can't see that your "god explanation" does exactly the same thing because you cannot explain god? You are simply shifting the problem one stage backwards with "but god just exists and requires no explanation". It's laughable that you think that is a better position than "we don't know, so let's keep looking" or even "but the stuff of the universe just exists and requires no explanation"

 

[KWED]

Yes, no one did it alone. That was all.

Don't think anyone has claimed that science must be a solo effort.

 

[KWED]

To claim every religious person is suffering from delusions is delusional. Don't you find it a bit arrogant to think that your 4% are the only sane people in the world?

This perfectly illustrates either your dishonesty or inability to understand very simple ideas.
It has been explained numerous times that most people believe in their version of god through childhood indoctrination or cultural conformity, not through having had miraculous visions, yet you keep presenting the same argument despite it being thoroughly refuted.

Also, having a temporary delusion or being mistaken about an experience does not mean that a person is "insane".

 

[KWED]

You obviously don't understand the difference between beliefs and provable facts. Lots of scientific ideas are beliefs. Religion doesn't claim to to operate only on facts, science does make that claim. Go to any historical museum, and you'll see plaques saying " in such a such time period, millions of years ago, such and such was happening." Those are stated as fact, but they aren't. They are speculation based on what we have found in the present, and interpreted according to the current theories. We are being lied to.

This doesn't explain why you aren't as sceptical of religious claims as you are of scientific ones. You have hard evidence that your computer works but you only have belief that prayer works, yet you claim that your belief in prayer is more reasonable than your belief in your computer's ability to fundamentally function tomorrow.

 

[KWED]

Impossible... you can't repeat every scientific experiment that you've heard of to prove it to yourself.

Every individual cannot reproduce every experiment - but every experiment can be repeated, and the same results obtained.