Double-blind Prayer Efficacy Test -- Really?

[KWED]

Lucky socks?!!!! Never heard that one.

Sports people will often have "lucky socks" (or pants or gloves or whatever).
They were wearing them when they had a memorable win and so wear them for every game in the "belief" that they carry some luck with them. If they lose one week when not wearing them, this confirms the belief. The fact that they will also have lost while wearing them and won without them is ignored (Texas sharpshooter fallacy). This also perfectly describes religious people's approach to the efficacy of prayer.

You are trying to reconcile religious beliefs with naturalistics beliefs - no telescope, microscope, equation, experiment or set of logic rules will suffice. Faith is faith.

Yes, we know that you have no evidence to support your assertions. However, simply claiming "I don't need evidence" doesn't make them any less ridiculous.

 

[KWED]

Wots the chance of you disappearing off the earth and walking on the sun, then returning to the earth? It's been worked out as part of quantum theorry - it's one chance in ten to the power one hundred to the power one hundred again. But possible.
But I was mistaken, that figure was a trillion, not a billion. Kept a copy

Jacob in Egypt foresaw a Hebrew nation, under theocratic law and governed by a monarchy under the line of Judah, “until” the Messiah comes. The Gentiles would obey Him.

Let’s apply “Probability Judgment”

Chance of one particular Semite tribe becoming a nation? Difficult, let’s say 1/1000.
Chance of a monarchy? God was against monarchy but monarchies were common – 50%.
Chance of a Judean king? Easy, 1/12.
Chance of a theocratic law? 50%
Chance of the Messiah who’s coming would end this nation? Impossible to figure. 1/million? More. Let’s be generous – 1/1000.
And the “obedience of the nations” to a Jewish Messiah? Count the gods of the world’s tribes. Be generous and say 1/10,000.

Generous probability = 0.000000000000415%
What’s that? Not even one in a trillion.
You mentioned “shockers” ?

Pious fiction? the accuracy demands explanation.

Sorry, but I have np idea what point you may think you are making here. It's beyond a word salad.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

...

Yes, we know that you have no evidence to support your assertions. However, simply claiming "I don't need evidence" doesn't make them any less ridiculous.

Well, for certain aspects of the everyday world I don't need evidence and for others I rely on it.
But other people do it differently with some variations.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Jacob, some 2,000 years before Jesus, spoke of the Messiah as coming from the tribe of Judah, and his coming would end the Jewish state. And in this Messiah would the Gentiles trust.
Daniel, some 600 years before Jesus said this Messiah would be destroyed by a nation that didn't have a name in his day, and this enemy would destroy the temple, Jerusalem and Israel. Daniel also gave a date for this. And he said this mystery nation (Rome) would eventually fall, but never fall. Rome fell, but then there was the Roman Catholic Church ruling the known world, then the Holy Roman Empire, and the Eastern Roman empire. And today Russia, like Italy and Germany before it, likes to think it is carrying on the Roman legacy.
Give me the odds of all this happening.

I'ld say that finding a figure like Jesus vaguely matching such "prophecies" in that time would be relatively easy.
A preaching jew executed by the romans. That's basically what it takes to match the main criteria.
Enough to pick from, I'ld imagine.

As for "nations falling but never falling", isn't that always true?
Nations / cultures being completely wiped from the planet is rather rare, you know..
Especially big ones that extent into vast territory. Such don't disappear overnight.
Their legacy always lives on one way or the other.

For example, Nazi Germany fell. But Germany still exists. The Soviet Union fell, but Russia still exists.
The Roman Empire fell, but Romans still existed.

Now it is pretty much reduced to Vatican City in a sense, lol.
But it's legacy lives on all through Europe and the Mediterranean, one way or the other.

I did the figures last year for the Jacob one and figured, at best, the odds were one in a billion it could happen by chance.

I'ld love to see that magic math.

 

[KWED]

Well, to me I properly don't believe in the same type of facts as you do, but I still believe in facts. I just use a different reasoning than you and a different reasoning for evidence.

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but not to their own facts". - JP Moynihan

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Let’s apply “Probability Judgment”

aka "let's pull some numbers out of nowhere and pretend they support my argument"

Chance of one particular Semite tribe becoming a nation? Difficult, let’s say 1/1000.

Sure. Or let's say 1/1. Or 1/10000000000000. Or 1/653.352315656238612356

Or whatever other number you wish to make up on the spot

Chance of a monarchy? God was against monarchy but monarchies were common – 50%.

lololol
How does "monarchies were common" amount to therefor "50%"?
If "monarchies were common", then why not 80%? Or 100%?
let me guess: 50% "feels" right to you?

Chance of a Judean king? Easy, 1/12.

So every tribe had an equal chance?

Chance of a theocratic law? 50%

Why? Another number pulled out of nowhere.

Chance of the Messiah who’s coming would end this nation? Impossible to figure. 1/million? More. Let’s be generous – 1/1000.

So you first say it's impossible to figure and then you just make up a number.
Groovy.

And the “obedience of the nations” to a Jewish Messiah? Count the gods of the world’s tribes. Be generous and say 1/10,000.

More made up numbers.

Generous probability = 0.000000000000415%
What’s that? Not even one in a trillion.
You mentioned “shockers” ?
Pious fiction? the accuracy demands explanation.

The "accuracy"

oh my... it's a shocker allright.

Literally makes up EVERY number on the spot and then calls it "accurate". Wonderful. You can't make this stuff up......................

 

[PruePhillip]

aka "let's pull some numbers out of nowhere and pretend they support my argument"
.

Let's see your own number. You are saying these guys made it all up.
One interesting figure I read last week concerned the chance of a nation restoring itself after 5 generations. From 3 to 5 generations is sufficient time for an ethnic group in exile to be absorbed. But the bible stated that Jews would go into exile to the four corners of the earth. They would suffer badly. Many of these nations would be their graves. But the nations that bless the Jew will be blessed and the nations that curse will be cursed. And in the latter days, when the Gentiles no longer receive Christianity the Jews will return to their homeland, take it back with the sword and live in cities without walls. But in another time this new Jewish nation will be attacked by a coalition of African and Middle East nations, led by a nation to Israel's 'uttermost north.' Israel will be defended by a nation in the islands or coastlands, not known by name to the bible authors. This nation will save Israel from a fearsome war where even the mountains fall. And from this war the world will see the rise of the Asian nations.

 

[PruePhillip]

I'ld say that finding a figure like Jesus vaguely matching such "prophecies" in that time would be relatively easy.
A preaching jew executed by the romans. That's basically what it takes to match the main criteria.
Enough to pick from, I'ld imagine.

As for "nations falling but never falling", isn't that always true?
Nations / cultures being completely wiped from the planet is rather rare, you know..
Especially big ones that extent into vast territory. Such don't disappear overnight.
Their legacy always lives on one way or the other.

For example, Nazi Germany fell. But Germany still exists. The Soviet Union fell, but Russia still exists.
The Roman Empire fell, but Romans still existed.

Now it is pretty much reduced to Vatican City in a sense, lol.
But it's legacy lives on all through Europe and the Mediterranean, one way or the other.




I'ld love to see that magic math.

Psalm 22 written by David, a symbolic figure of a rejected and reigning king, gives us a picture of a crucifixion and resurrection and the preaching of this disfigured person - that's Jesus on the cross. No-one in David's day had much knowledge of crucifixions. And David wasn't speaking of himself, he says of this suffering figure that people would go out and preach 'that he has done this.'

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but not to their own facts". - JP Moynihan

Yeah.
Cognitive Relativism | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
Truth | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
Philosophy of science - Wikipedia
Yeah, it is a fact there are several versions of truth and science as that relates to facts. So which version is a fact?
BTW your quote is not a fact, as it doesn't establish it as a fact.

So KWED, I am a strong skeptic, so you can't play with me, like you do with religious people. Because I have spend over 25 years learning to reason without religion, but using Western secular ideas about facts, evidence, reason and all that jazz.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Let's see your own number.

I don't pretend to be able to calculate the incalculable.
That's more your area of expertise.

You are saying these guys made it all up.

I don't remember saying that anywhere.

 

[Wildswanderer]

It's this kind of response that shows you have given up any semblance of objectivity or rational thought.

It's this kind of response that shows your total lack of ability to see outside your tiny paradigm box.

 

[Wildswanderer]

You said that atheists who reject the existence of the supernatural were "made in god's image".

Because everyone is.

 

[Wildswanderer]

So you think your phone only works because you believe it does?

Knee jerk response.

 

[Wildswanderer]

And it is.
Science requires evidence.

Only much of what is known as science doesn't have evidence.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

It's this kind of response that shows your total lack of ability to see outside your tiny paradigm box.

Can you see yours? I can see mine and yours.

 

[Wildswanderer]

And sure, it can still turn out wrong in the end. The point is, "faith" is not part of the equation.

Wow, a whole lot of words to get around the obvious, we have to have faith that they did the experiments and research correctly.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Again, more strawmanning.

I never said that science (be it historical science, natural science, etc) is infallible.
In fact, making mistakes and then finding out is how science makes progress.

Off course, one has to have the intellectual honesty and courage to acknowledge mistakes and adjust conclusions accordingly.

This is the main difference between rational folks and fundamentalists like yourself.

When scientists find a mistake in their beliefs, then they rejoice because they have just learned something and made progress.

When religious fundamentalists find a mistake in their beliefs, they'll do everything in their power to dodge it and "explain it away", because their beliefs are dogmatic.

This is the difference between following the evidence as opposed to following bronze age myth.

Mistakes are common, yet you want me to blindly believe they are correct about what happened 30 million years ago...

 

[Wildswanderer]

Any evidence other than the claims of the religion based around that claim?

Please explain the method by which he is detectable so I can repeat the experiment myself.

I have been listening very closely for years. Never heard a peep.

Because you never listened expecting to get a response. Praying is a good place to start. Don't forget to confess and repent before expecting God to respond.

 

[Wildswanderer]

No. It's a demonstrable fact.
Pick any scientific experiment and we can see if it is repeatable.
Your choice. Off you go....

Demonstrate the big bang. Test it to see if it happened.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Also, I could do the same and claim that before this universe existed there were no "laws of science" so the basic stuff of the universe didn't have to obey them

Lol, only if you leave science behind because it can't address anything outside those laws .. it's a very limited perspective.