Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe I can imagine that prayer would never work for you unless it was one of repentance.
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Double-blind Prayer Efficacy Test -- Really?
- Thread starter Kenny
- Start date
I believe I can imagine that prayer would never work for you unless it was one of repentance.
ppp
Well-Known Member
I feel like I am paying more attention to what you say than you are. Or maybe you are just anticipating from some other conversation with some one else. You posed a why question with regards to gravity, and some other phenomenon. The can you are kicking is not "who" but "why". From why gravity to why a god.
Also, if you tell me something is incomprehensible, after telling me something about it, I am just gonna laugh.
I did not say there is no why. I said that saying that there is a why is an unjustified assumption.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Absolutely false per the fact that there can be "backsliders", which Jesus talked about in the Parable of the Seed & Sower [Paul said much the same], and also Paul talking about that he was unwilling to judge himself because of his "innermost thoughts".
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
So you believe a works religion instead of the gospel...
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Not "works under the [Jewish] Law", which is what Paul was referring to, but doing "good works" under Jesus' teachings is mandated, as Paul clarified.
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
No one is saved by works of any kind, however.
Then you must believe that your god is incapable of producing automatons, that it's very existence precludes that possibility. I assure you that a tri-omni deity would capable of creating automatons if we are. I suspect that many Christians consider the beasts to be automatons, so they wouldn't consider it impossible that they were automatons, even if they rejected the notion that they were. So, no, you still have not explained how it can't be the case that we are automatons. I suspect that I am correct that your position on the possibility of human beings being automatons is based on your belief that your god did not create automatons.
That's not credible. But it wouldn't matter. Whatever your motivation, you are happier as a theist just as I am happier as a humanist. Why is this a sticking point? Is that thought unthinkable to you? Maybe you consider my comment also not credible - that nobody can be happier outside of Christianity.
Obviously it does. You and I are each experiments of nature.
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
It seems that the Apostle Paul contradicted himself because he also wrote, “Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed – not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence – continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his purpose.” So, which is, are people saved by grace through faith or are they required to work out their salvation with fear and trembling? It seems to me that the Apostle Paul couldn't make up his mind.
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
No, but what would be the point? A loving father can't be a loving father of robots. That's not love. I don't think this universe appears to be completely deterministic. It certainly doesn't appear to be only about survival for the human race. Nor does it appear to operate only by chance. So I'm merely picking the most likely explanation.
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
Obviously it doesn't. Unless it has an intelligent designer guiding it.
Otherwise it just swings in the dark, not even hoping to hit anything.
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
I don't think the universe is dependent on what you think, unless your thinking is what causes the universe to be what it is.
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
It's encouraging ongoing obedience for those already saved. Note that Paul is not telling them to work for their salvation.
Paul is clear that even Abraham wasn't saved by doing works.
"If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
I didn't say it was... I'm Explaining what my observation of the universe tells me.
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
Your observation doesn't tell you anything. That is your thinking what it means beyond observation. You really have to study some basic philosophy.
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
Studies are also observations.
I agree. You're picking what you consider most likely. But if you will go back a few posts, you'll see that what I wrote was, "You still haven't explained why it can't be the case that we are automatons or robots or meat bags or whatever you call animals lacking free will," and you answered, "Yes I have. You just don't like any answers involving God." The answers you gave answer why you believe that, not why it couldn't be the case.
The universe doesn't appear to have or need an intelligent designer. And yes, the universe may very well not hope for anything. Somehow, your faith has given you an idea of the world that is far from mine. You concern yourself with whether we have free will or whether the universe's experiments can be called experiments if it's unconscious, where I don't care if what we have is free will or merely the illusion of free will, and am quite at home with the idea that the universe is mostly unconscious rocks, dust, and gas hosting at least one island of consciousness, but itself being a huge collection of orbiting rocks and gas.
DNB
Christian
And what perception is it that atheists lack?
They lack depth to their thoughts, they cannot perceive the metaphysical realm nor what is contained in it, namely the spiritual warfare at hand - man commits unjustifiable and inexplicable atrocities.
Don't you lack the perception to detect Hindu gods? Can you perceive Shiva and Vishnu? If not, what is your problem?
I can comprehend what they have fabricated, and how limited insight can compel one to believe of its veracity. I only veritably accept the existence of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - the Judeo-Christian God. There can only be one all-powerful, all-knowing, and omnipresent Deity in the universe. Therefore, for example, polytheism is a fallacy, precluding the option to take seriously the myriad of other competing religions in this world..
And what remarkable insights do theists have? Do they no commit crimes? Do they not lie and cheat? Are there no theists in prisons? Explain to me how much advantage a person has being a theist versus an non-theist. Use facts.
Being a theist by either birth, indoctrination, pretense, or some other ulterior motive, gains no-one any advantage. Criminals and the like, who confess to be theists, we consider to be charlatans. As for those who are authentic, sincere and devout theists, it is obvious what the assets are - they have the fundamental truth of the universe: it's purpose and requirements.
This is not a sound conclusion. You offered no evidence, only claims. That is not a wise thing to do in debate with smart atheists.
That is an oxymoron: 'smart atheist'. They may have intelligence on secular matters, but to deny their Creator is the quintessence of foolishness and ignorance. Since the beginning of history, every single nation on this planet have had a religious facet to their society. Every single human worth mentioning, believed in one god or another. This, in and of itself, presupposes the spiritual dimension in man, and that spirit must have a source - God, for such an inherent disposition and sentiment in man could not possibly be derived from stardust or protoplasm.
...100% you are going to make me regret writing back to you. Therefore, I wrote this in case others may read it.
Sheldon
Veteran Member
You may want to look up the word miraculous in any dictionary.
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
Evidencing
Comprehend
no sense
claims
unfalsifiable
unevidenced
claims
The bible makes many claims, and a lot of them, particularly the historicity, have proven to be valid.
But as for the above list - faith is a different realm to science. Issues of why there is something rather than nothing, how people can have personal experience, issues of the reason for us being here and even the fulfillment of prophecy in our own day (the issue of a restored Israel) are valid, and largely outside of science.
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
Not really. It is valid AND WORTHWHILE to figure out how the earth formed - it gives us power to predict earthquakes, drill for oil, mine for metals etc..And it's valid to work out how stars are made as it gives us insights into the nuclear business (quantum, silicon chips, nuclear power stations, fusion etc..) So knowledge is power. And this knowledge tells us how everything formed, right down to the atom. And we know where galaxies come from, and stars, and planets, and us.
What we don't know and can never ask is where physics comes from - for the thing which made all we see had to be made itself - somehow.
So how was physics made? And where do numbers come from?