Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
The stories of Jesus were more likely embellished and even plagiarized from older pagan religions, as I demonstrated in my post here.
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Double-blind Prayer Efficacy Test -- Really?
- Thread starter Kenny
- Start date
The stories of Jesus were more likely embellished and even plagiarized from older pagan religions, as I demonstrated in my post here.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
The question that I answered was rather vague. I do not know if he meant the Jesus myth. I thought that he meant religious beliefs in general.
You know there is leadership who creates the stories, the rules, the myths, and attracts the believers. But that's irrelevant to the many blind followers who have no clue why they are attracted to these dogmas, nor how they were influenced by their social experience to believe these dogmas. But they are attracted, and they claim it's truth. This is what the leaders know. And none of these dogmas has any basis in fact. You must be aware how many explain this to you daily.
Have you noticed how many different theists claim they have the truth? None can demonstrates they actually have it. Even their poor attitudes, and beliefs against science betray them. If people were really tuned in to a God they would accept science, use reason, show a remarkable humility and depth of understanding. Believers not only fail to offer evidence their beliefs are true, but also show they don't follow their own ideals.
joelr
Well-Known Member
Uh, the myths the Hebrews picked up during the 2nd Temple period are what Christianity is based on. That includes savior demigods, salvation for individuals, heaven as a destination for redeemed souls, a general resurrection after the final battle with evil and many others. Those are not part of the OT. Messianic prophecies showed up in th elate OT because the first occupation was the Persians who already had the world savior myths.
As far as that being an opinion piece, I have no idea why you would think that? That is standard history? Those quotes are from historical scholars who study the period but this is 100% consensus in history that Greek/Persian myths are where the Hebrews got that theology. You too can read peer-reviewed history books and find out.
Although if you don't follow Judaism and don't know the historicity behind the stories that it's even weirder that you would claim to know a simple history lesson is an opinion piece? You just said you don't know?
- Hundley, Michael B. (2015), "Heaven and Earth", in Balentine, Samuel E. (ed.), The Oxford Encyclopedia of the Bible and Theology, vol. 1: ABR – JUS, Oxford, England: Oxford University Press, pp. 451–457, ISBN 978-0-19-023994-7
- Sanders, E. P. (1993), The Historical Figure of Jesus, London, England, New York City, New York, Ringwood, Australia, Toronto, Ontario, and Auckland, New Zealand: Penguin Books, ISBN 978-0-14-014499-4
- Wright, J. Edward (2000), The Early History of Heaven, Oxford, England: Oxford University Press, ISBN 978-0-195-15230-2
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
How did the first believers hear from other believers? Being first means you didn't get it from someone else. I didn't ask if you believe.
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
No, Jesus is what Christianity is based on.
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
The earliest church was heavily persecuted. What is the motivation for creating a belief that can get you killed or shunned?
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
And I told you. When it comes to God stories they almost certainly began as stories. That is all. People believe stories all of the time.
Why would that matter? It remains impossible for them to acquire useful information about reality by any method not rooted in experience correctly understood (empiricism). They can create comforting stories, but these are not answers. They are guesses.
Yes. If you don't employ the methods of critical analysis, your thinking is not rational and your beliefs unsound.
Critical thinking is prescribed like addition. There is only one set of rules for properly adding numbers, which yields an accurate sum every time if done properly, but nonsense if irrational ideas like 2+2=5 are introduced. Critical thought calls the linguistic equivalent of these irrational errors fallacies. If one's string of transformations connecting correct premises and evidence to conclusions contains no fallacies, the reasoning is valid and the conclusions also correct (sound).
The theist's equivalent to your comment is "You critical thinkers are too narrow and closed-minded." Each school rejects the premises and methods utilized by the other concerning the proper way to decide what is true about the world, neither side much interested in the output of the other's process. So, yes, if you aren't thinking critically, your thinking is at least in part irrational and your conclusions are unsound
I'd ask Jim Jones or David Koresh, but I can't. I'm guessing that the desire for money and power underlie much of it, but religious zealotry undoubtedly plays a big role.
But don't you do that yourself with a deity? You're probably aware of what is called a special pleading fallacy. The commonest one is this one.
Do you believe that a deity has existed forever? If so, what's your answer to the skeptic who accuses you of claiming that just to avoid the question of how that god got here? And have you noticed that when the theist makes the claim that his god has always existed, the skeptics don't claim that that is impossible? They just say that if it is possible for a deity to have existed eternally without start, then it is possible for universes and multiverses to have existed without a beginning. And this is where the two part ways. The theist simply dismisses that argument out of hand as you have done and settling for a fallacious belief believed, that everything must have had a beginning except his god. Why? Because, that's why.
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
The 'argument' of 'who then created God' cannot be valid. You have zero comprehension of a realm without time or space or physics or numbers. You can't challenge the nature of such a realm - no maths can describe it, no human conciousness can grasp it. We can all grasp in some limited fashion even the most esoteric things in this univers, even crudely, quantum physics (ie you get this particle which is in many places at the same time, or linked to another particle somewhere else in the universe.)
I hold that from this realm our universe was created. Set in motion if you like. Given laws of physics to follow.
This is one of the 'non-overlapping magisteria.'
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
Whoosh! Nevermind.
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
And you get to decide what experience is correctly understood?
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
And you get to decide what critical thinking is?
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
They weren't persecuted.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Please, the only "whoosh" would apply to you. Perhaps you are not asking your question properly. Are you asking about the various God myths or your personal Jesus myth?
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Were they? There was some persecution but those stories, like so many others, appear to have grown over the years.
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
You beat me to it. I wanted to say something similar about how people can be suckered into believing anything, as some Christians genuinely believed Jim Jones and David Koresh. Also, some people can be extreme in their religious views and are willing to die for what they believe in. I don't know if you read my other post (click here), but I provided some examples demonstrating how the Bible and the stories of Jesus were more likely plagiarized from pagan religions that predate both the Bible and Christianity. Personally, I think my other post also shows that the early Christians were duped into believing the stories of Jesus told by the apostles and other people who believed in him. As I said, if you read, "Parallels between Christianity and ancient Pagan religions," you'll see what I mean.
Oh people are willing to be martyrs for all sorts of ideas. Surely you don't think people are rational all the time. Do you think Mormons are rational in their religious beliefs? If your view is correct then Joseph Smith is legitimate, and you should look to follow Mormonism. Or do you think he created the visions and beliefs himself, and somehow was able to attract followers? Look at how many Mormons there are today, do they have the truth? Where did Joseph Smith get his truth from except God, right?
If you reject that Smith's revelation is true then you acknowledge a religion can be invented by human imagination, and that means that Christianity could be invented via human invention and creativity. Just look at all the variations of Christianity these days, are they all divine and equal from God's guidance? Or are humans making their own adjustments and changes to suit an audience?
You reject science, and that did not come from your academic education, it came from a negative influence by your choice of Christianity.
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
They were literally thrown to lions, burned alive and crucified, just to name a few.
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
I don't reject science. So no.