Double-blind Prayer Efficacy Test -- Really?

[SkepticThinker]

You just proved me right.

Have you ever been to ICR or AIG's sites?

They flat out state that they're not doing proper science in their mission statements.

For example:

"Why Answers in Genesis Exists
Answers in Genesis (AiG) exists to proclaim the authority of the Bible—from the very first verse—without compromise by using apologetics in its world-class attractions, dynamic resources, and creative media to communicate the message of God’s Word and the gospel so that believers are equipped to defend the Christian faith and nonbelievers are challenged with the truth of the Bible and its message of salvation."

Mission Statement

That's not doing science.

 

[KWED]

If you want to read testimonials of people who were healed, simply type " testimonies of children healed" into a search engine.

So you believe everything everyone says on the internet?

We know that people just get better from conditions through the immune system doing its job. So, why do you claim that some of those people were healed by god through prayer?
And again, why does god only heal a few at random and leave millions of others to suffer and die?

Then there are those people who claim to have been miraculously cured of cancer after prayer - and surgery and chemo!

 

[KWED]

No, not 'flawed' but a better definition by Gould, 'Non overlapping magisteria'

You mean like how the "real" and "imaginary" do not overlap. Of as Gould put it "facts vs values".

Science and religion operate on different realms.

You, and others here and elsewhere, claim that real-world actions (prayer) can affect the outcome of real-world events by supernatural means. That is most definitely "overlapping"!

Science can answer some of the what and how and religion answers the why.

No it doesn't. It makes unsupported claims and bare assertions. And when we ask for evidence or rational argument to support those claims, you back away saying "but religion doesn't deal in evidence!".
Convenient.

Also, is is just question begging to assume that there is a "why". Why does there have to be a "why"?

Science can 'explain' that the universe expanded from an initial starting point or singularity
but not how this initial state came from nothing, or why it did what it did.

1. Who claims it came from nothing (apart from creationists)?
2. Can religion explain how the universe came from nothing?

Religion has its own science - the science of the personal as it stresses the individual.

No idea what you are trying to say there. And I suspect, neither do you.

 

[KWED]

You could even say that one day we will identify and measure personal relationships.
But not with God's spirit. That's the inner and personal experience - not a group or collective proof.

But we know other people exist. We can demonstrate it. That is not the case with god.

 

[KWED]

Remember the Carthagian general Hannibal? The claim is that he took an army over the Alps and invaded
Rome. Complete with elephants. An analogy would be like Australians paddling to USA and occupying it for 12 years.

No it wouldn't!
A better analogy would be a small island in the northern Atlantic conquering and ruling one third of the globe for over a century with little more than wooden boats and primitive firearms.
I know. Utterly ridiculous. Could never happen.

Two authors wrote of Hannibal. Neither saw anything of what they wrote. Years later. Livy and Polybius.
Did it happen? Well if this story was in the bible you would say it didn't happen unless there is outside
corroborating evidence. Did Hannibal's men ride on giant scorpions? Was Hannibal's nemesis Scipio
a son of the gods? Yes, the story is utterly fake - at least by the standards skeptics set for the bible's
stories, despite their truth slowly emerging (Google 'archaelogy sodom 2022')
Someone remarked on this bias by saying, 'The bible is guilty until proven innocent.' Confirmation bias
works both ways.

You are missing a fundamental point here.
Even if there was literally zero evidence for Hannibal using war elephants in Europe, we know elephants exist and they were used in battles by various people, including Carthage.
We know elephants can travel long distances and survive harsh conditions. The claim is not one that relies entirely on believing stuff on faith alone.
The stories of magic in the Bible not only have zero evidence, but the very existence of magic has never been demonstrated.

Basically, you are saying that if we believe in war elephants we must believe in magic.

You are also ignoring the fact that there was a history of war elephants being used against Rome, in Italy. The Romans captured some of the ones Pyrrhus invaded Rome with, many years before Hannibal invaded.

 

[KWED]

No... He said, "for I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat" - He put the sole responsibility on you.

Asking "amiss" is when you are asking God to do something when He gave the responsibility to you and me.

So remind me why god answers trivial prayers whilst ignoring those to save children dying in agony.
Or did you simply not address the issue at all.

 

[KWED]

moving goal post.

Not at all.
Ironically, it is you who keeps trying to move the goal posts. Unfortunately, the shots keep going in.

 

[KWED]

Ummm... no, I answered in kind with your statement.

You're not even bothering to even pretend to address points now, are you?
Hardly surprising though, given the weakness and disorganisation of your position.

 

[metis]

I do believe He does. (I actually believe in some of the stories in the TaNaKh.

As do I, but which ones are historically true and which are folklore is well beyond my paygrade.

Now, don't get me wrong as you well know what I went through that led me back, thus I'm not scoffing at the Tanakh nor the Gospel.

True account during a dry season in Australia where all crops were failing and God told a farmer to plant potatoes while everyone said "You are crazy".

But even a blind chicken gets a worm once in a while, even me, so I can't go one such incident.

Thanks, but I'm not willing to go into the link for security reasons. BTW, did you ever see the Australian movie "Rabbit-Proof Fence"? That is one true and fantastic story based on three ingenious children leaving an orphanage.

Found it: Rabbit Foot Fence 2002 full movie - YouTube

 

[KWED]

I would agree on various points. Yes, it would be important to know that we are praying for them. I have asked some people if they wanted me to pray for them and they said emphatically "no".

Given that the study shows that people who knew they were being prayed for suffered worse outcomes, I'm not surprised they said no.

I think prayer is for God's purpose. It is found in the "Let your will be done on earth as it is in Heaven"- thus His purpose. But not at the exclusion of ourselves IMV, but more for others.

Nonsense. People only pray for themselves out of self interest, or altruistically for the benefit of others. They believe god can do something for them.

 

[KWED]

It's the REACTION to the research in the Jordan Valley that interested me. One guy told me not to trust the research because it was church
funded.

The data can be checked and verified. It is the conclusions that we should be sceptical of. Was there a meteor than caused the destruction of a town in the ANE that was the basis of the Sodom and Gomorrah story? Possibly. Does that indicate that any of the magic stories in the Bible ate therefore true? Absolutely not.

True. But then should we trust the biblical skeptics either?

You seem confused. Bible sceptics are not making any claims. They are simply saying that on the basis of the evidence, it is unreasonable to accept the magical stories therein as true. There is nothing to "trust".

I told that the story of the Jewish people, beginning with Abraham's father, are more or less historical.

I think you have misunderstood what "historical" means. There is no historical evidence for those characters from the Bible. They are best described as "mythical". Were the stories based on unknown historical characters? Possibly, but he have no knowledge of who they might have been.

 

[KWED]

A better question: Why are you so hell- bent on not believing people's testimonies?

No. The question is "Why are you so hell-bent of accepting extraordinary claims without any supporting evidence?"

In any other field, such claims would be cerated with due scepticism, but when it's about religion we are supposed to just give it all a free pass.

If I told you that my case of Covid was cured by pixies, would you believe me?

 

[KWED]

Then it's impossible to prove anything, because you have to ask people questions... which is anecdotal evidence.

You really have no idea how things like scientific research or the law work, do you?

How old are you? What is your educational level? What do you do? (I want to better understand who I am dealing with).

 

[KWED]

I have strong doubts the God will change events just because I want Him to.

The problem with that would be it would negate his omniscience.

God knows person x will die at time t.
Person x prays that god save them.
God changes events so x does not die at time t.
Therefore god's knowledge of the future was wrong.

 

[Kenny]

So remind me why god answers trivial prayers whilst ignoring those to save children dying in agony.
Or did you simply not address the issue at all.

I did address it... let me reiterate it when Jesus said:

"35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat;"

To ask wrong is to ask for something that God gave you the responsibility for.

We know that we have the capacity to feed the world (throwing so much away). If we are not feeding the world, it is man's fault and not God's.


So, look in the mirror and ask yourself, "What am I doing to feed the hungry? - God, please help me with compassion and capacity". I'm sure He will hear your prayer as you go do something.

 

[metis]

The problem with that would be it would negate his omniscience.

I'm far from sure of His supposed omniscience. Matter of fact, I believe it was one of the books of Samuel whereas He says that He didn't know that Saul was going to turn out to be such a jerk.

I drift more towards "Spinoza's God", thus more of a naturalistic approach.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I did address it... let me reiterate it when Jesus said:

"35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat;"

To ask wrong is to ask for something that God gave you the responsibility for.

We know that we have the capacity to feed the world (throwing so much away). If we are not feeding the world, it is man's fault and not God's.


So, look in the mirror and ask yourself, "What am I doing to feed the hungry? - God, please help me with compassion and capacity". I'm sure He will hear your prayer as you go do something.

I'm sorry but this is one of the biggest cop-outs I've ever seen.

It's man's fault that God doesn't answer the prayers of starving children? And that's while he answers prayers about comparatively trivial matters like where someone's next mortgage payment is coming from or something.
Come on.

 

[KWED]

Faith Like Potatoes - Watch TBN - Trinity Broadcasting Network
If that link doesn't work, I think it is on Amazon Prime too.
True account during a dry season in Australia where all crops were failing and God told a farmer to plant potatoes while everyone said "You are crazy".

You do know that it's a film "based on a true story", not a documentary?

Sounds like a Texas sharpshooter fallacy as well. There are many more god-fearing farmers whose crops fail.

Also, the man the film is based on is a homophobe and misogynist who has been banned from preaching in some venues because of his bigoted views - so not a great example to be holding up.

 

[KWED]

I'm far from sure of His supposed omniscience. Matter of fact, I believe it was one of the books of Samuel whereas He says that He didn't know that Saul was going to turn out to be such a jerk.

Indeed. The Bible can be all over the place at times.

I drift more towards "Spinoza's God", thus more of a naturalistic approach.

So not a "god" then?

 

[metis]

So not a "god" then?

I wouldn't go that far, but I can't go beyond this because how am I supposed to know all about this? I wasn't at the BB because I was born a few years later.